"Mirror, Mirror on the wall . . . where did he go, and why doesn't he call?"

Who Should Pay For A Date?





This is a topic that seems to spark a bit of debate each time it arises. Naturally, no one likes to be used. Men claim women use men for money and women claim men use women for sex. And there’s truth to both of those claims. But there’s also a good old fashioned way of alleviating any hard feelings of being used.

How, you ask?

The feeling of being used can be eliminated by fulfilling one another’s needs in respectful ways. Let’s face it, women like sex just as much as men. But guys, nothing makes a woman feel crappier and more insecure about herself than a man ringing her phone at some inopportune moment, inviting himself over to simply plunk himself down on her sofa – and then expecting sex from his less than stellar efforts.

And ladies, nothing makes a man feel more used than a woman accepting a date that the man drops $100 or more on and in the end he doesn’t even receive so much as a thank you or a goodnight kiss from his efforts to impress and the woman displays no intention of ever seeing the man again.

So How Can Ill Feelings of Being Used be Eliminated?




Let’s explore a couple of starters.

The first of which is: Ladies, if you have no intention of ever seeing the man again, pick up the tab or at the very least, offer to pay your half. A true gentleman won’t permit you to do this and, if that’s the case, might I ask that you please reconsider your assumptions of him and give him a second chance?

The second of which is: Men, if you want sex, please consider the use of romance to obtain it. I realize that new concepts such as “no strings attached” exist in the dating world, however, please realize that you can only make a woman feel crappy about herself and used once or twice effectively and get away with it. Any more than that and her insecurities will cause her to rethink the “arrangement” she has with you and she’ll shut you off – and out.

No one wants to spend time with someone that makes them feel crappy about themselves.

This Can All be Avoided With a Very Simple Equation: Romance = Sex


Yep, it’s that simple. If a woman feels romanced (respected) by a man and is made to feel special in some way via actions (not a bunch of BS words), she can be talked into some wild things. Not only that, she’ll tend to go along with those things a lot longer than she would if a man weren’t lifting a finger for her.

And men, we all know you want sex. Is it really that much to ask for you to take a woman out to dinner or offer a movie or drinks or bring her a flower – before you attempt to pounce?

What I’m trying to say here is:

Guys: If you want your needs fulfilled with sex then fulfill a woman’s needs with romance (respect).

Ladies: Refuse to fulfill a man’s needs with sex unless your needs are fulfilled with romance (respect).

It’s a mating dance. It’s the recipe for successful mating and it’s an age-old equation. Romance = Sex.

Gentlemen and Tradition


Listen up guys. Have you ever seen James Bond let a woman provide for him? Nope. And why is that? It’s because James Bond types of men, true gentlemen, true “macs,” understand that women want and need romance and they understand that their masculinity is closely associated with their ability to provide. They understand that the way to successfully mate with a woman – is to be chivalrous, provide for her and romance her.

You’d never see Frank Sinatra or Dean Martin letting a woman pick up the tab or provide for them either. They, too, understood the old equation “Romance = Sex.” They were respectful gentlemen and each considered themselves to be a “man’s man.” And a man’s man does not fall short when it comes to being a man by letting a woman provide for him or take a masculine, leading role.

These men, true gentlemen, realize the value of romance and they understand the implications of masculine versus feminine energy. If Frank Sinatra asked you out to dinner and you, as a woman, attempted to pick up the tab – he would’ve been insulted. You would’ve insulted his masculinity, his manhood, and implied to him that you felt he wasn’t, or couldn’t, be a good provider.

It would’ve been construed as a direct blow to his manhood and his masculinity.

There’s a big difference between gentlemen and immature “man boys.” Even modern day manufacturers and large corporations realize this and embrace good old fashioned values and tradition in this modern day world.

Take, for instance, the Ketel One Vodka marketing campaign. Ketel One Vodka is raising their “value” in consumers’ eyes by marketing their vodka strictly to – yep, you guessed it – gentlemen only. And they make reference to “gentlemen” in every single one of their commercials.

They speak directly to “gentlemen” only in their marketing campaigns and they portray gentlemen as chivalrous and respectful with women in those campaigns. Notice that even though they portray men as men, gentlemen and manly men – they DO NOT portray them as disrespectful cavemen to women. In fact, they portray them as the exact opposite. They portray gentlemen as chivalrous to women – respectful. And this in no way decreases their value as men or portrays them as weak. In fact, it increases their value as men, real men, gentlemen – and portrays them as strong, respectful and chivalrous to women:


Ketel One Vodka realizes that when it comes to men and women, traditional gender roles are primal, deeply ingrained, and still exist. Ketel One strongly realizes that chivalry is not dead and that high value exists in traditional ways.

Ketel One refers to “the days when substance was style” and the days when “men were men” in their marketing campaigns – and they market directly to men, real men, manly men – gentlemen:


So why the heavy play on “real men, manly men” and "tradition" and “gentlemen” in their marketing campaigns?

Because Ketel One realizes that real men, gentlemen – spend money. Ketel One knows that attempting to market to a “man boy” or an immature player will have little to no effect on their sales. Why? Because Ketel One realizes that man boys, immature men who are players – won’t easily part with their money. They realize that man boys and players are generally selfish men.

Ketel One doesn’t want to decrease their “value” in the eyes of others by associating themselves with men such as that. Ketel One wants to place a high value on themselves, their brand, their product and their company by associating and marketing themselves strictly to men, real men, man’s men – gentlemen only. Ketel One realizes that gentlemen are perceived as having a much higher value to other men - and also to women. So the message in their marketing is:

1) Real men, gentlemen, drink Ketel One Vodka.

2) Women place a high value on gentlemen. The message here to men is, “Drink Ketel One and women will place a high value on you. Women will see you as a gentleman, a man’s man, a real man.”

Brilliant if you ask me. I’d date any one of these men portrayed in these commercials in a heartbeat. I wouldn’t hesitate to think twice about it. As a matter of fact, if I met a man like that, I’d be giddy over it. And if I ever see a man drinking Ketel One Vodka when I’m out, you can bet your bottom dollar that subconsciously – he’s going to have a higher value in my eyes and stand out above the rest of the men in the establishment – as a man, a true gentleman.

And this isn’t because I’m some weak minded female that easily falls for marketing and image ploys. It’s because of the association of their brand with “gentlemen” and the subconscious affect that their marketing campaigns have on this primal concept that’s deeply, genetically ingrained inside of each and every one of us – male or female.

My point is: Subtleties and the unspoken dynamics of male versus female, masculine versus feminine energy, and traditional gender roles – still exist – deeply ingrained within men and women’s psyches - particularly when it comes to men, women, love and relationships.

Some May Call It Sexist


But let’s face it - there IS a difference between the sexes. Yes, I’m a woman, an independent woman. I pay my own way, keep a roof over my head and work full time to support myself. But that’s my career – not my life. In life, my personal life, I’m a woman through and through. And when it comes to dating and love and relationships, I’m a woman. I don’t want to be treated like a dude. I don’t want to be a man’s buddy (f**k buddy). I want to be treated like the woman that I am.

One is your work life and the other is your personal life. In your personal life, you’re still a woman so don’t mesh the two. Men like to date women (feminine energy). If they wanted to date a dude (masculine energy), that’s exactly what they’d do – switch teams.

So in my career, I’m comfortable wearing the pants and assuming a leadership role and exhibiting masculine energy. But in my personal life and in my love relationships, I’m a woman. It’s the one area of my life where I prefer to relax, breath and relinquish control and the lead over to a man. It’s one area of my life where I let a man be a man and let myself be a woman.

As a woman, there is great pleasure and satisfaction in being treated as such.

And, ladies, I can tell you this – there is nothing more attractive to men than a woman who can do just that. Men find a woman who can be independent and take care of herself yet still be a woman in all other aspects - completely irresistible. It’s incredibly enticing to men, the thought of a woman like that.

“I can bring home the bacon, fry it up in a pan and never, ever let you forget – you’re a man.” Yet another popular marketing campaign that appealed to the importance of traditional gender roles in relationships, the Enjoli commercial of the 1980’s:


And take a look at the masculinity and romance concept of the recent Old Spice marketing campaign that revived a dying brand and turned it mainstream once again with taglines like, “the man your man could smell like:”


Why do you think campaigns such as these become wildly popular and increase brand sales by the thousands? Why do you think campaigns that signal traditional concepts such as masculine versus feminine combined with romance are still being used to generate sales successfully even in the decades following the women’s liberation movement?

It’s because they appeal to those traditional gender roles that are genetically, deeply ingrained in each and every one of us. If this was such a lost “eras gone by” sexist concept as many would argue, then these campaigns would not be the wildly popular, successful marketing campaigns that they are.

They’re popular because everyone can relate – both men and women.

So before you’re quick to fluff off and dismiss traditional gender roles as sexist and a dead concept from eras gone by, realize that when you boil things down to their base form – men are still men and women are still women. The roles that Mother Nature assigned us millennias ago still exist and are genetically, biologically, deeply ingrained in men and women psyches.

It’s a concept that’s so relevant that it’s still being used successfully in marketing campaigns some 30 years after women’s liberation.

So again I repeat, ladies and gentlemen – Romance = Sex.

The Answer is Clear




Women tend to lose respect for a man that fails to be a good provider. This has nothing to do with money. It's a primal, biological concept. Back in the days of the caveman, the man with the nicest cave who was the best hunter and provided the warmest hides and furs and kept food on the table - yea - he got all the cave babes. He wasn't rich, he was a good provider. And biologically, women are programmed to chose men they mate with that have the best and highest chances of ensuring that any offspring produced from the union have the greatest chance of survival.

On the same token, men are biologically programmed to chose women they mate with that have the best and highest chance of producing offspring for them. And do you know what the number one factor they subconsciously use to make their choice is? Yep, you guessed it - a woman's body.

Studies have revealed that hip to waist ratio matters tremendously when it comes to men's choices in a female mate. Why? Because a proper hip to waist ratio signals "health" to a man. And it's the traditional hour glass figure that appeals the most to them. It's not about being fat or skinny, ladies. It's not about size. Hell, Marilyn Monroe was a size 16 by today's standards. But that blonde bombshell had a near perfect hip to waist ratio of 0.69. Sophia Loren, also a size 16 by today's standards, hit the sweet spot coming in at a perfect 0.7.

So yes, women look for men to be providers and men focus on a woman's physical form. It is what it is, folks. Don't fight it, embrace it. Embrace the differences.

Men, if you want to successfully mate then pay for the date. Don't make a woman feel used by expecting something for nothing.

Ladies, if he's impressed you and you want to see him again, let him be a man and provide for you by picking up the tab. If you have no intention of ever seeing him again, avoid making him feel used by offering to pay your half or pick up the entire tab.

Happy mating and successful dating, folks.

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92 Comments:

Anonymous said...

MOA- you are the best! This is so true! I haven't dated much in my life, but if a man can not pick up the tab, I will def question his ability to make me happy.. 1. I will question to be a provider/caretaker of a household 2. I would wonder if he is broke 3. I will wonder if he is somewhat of a user or don't think I am worth it. I would never accept a date from a man if I wasn't somewhat interested, and I always offer because its just decent manners...Good stuff!

AnonWoman said...

Here here

Gemini 50 said...

Great article Ms. Mirror,
Next time I am at the packy, guess what I'm buying: Ketel One! lol

This article reminded me of a discussion I had in my late 20's with a group a guys I was working with. I was the only female working with four guys for a few days on a project in a secluded area. They were all good guys (but I wasn't dating any of them, so who knows), and throughout the years, a couple have become family to me.

As we worked, they talked about mostly guy stuff and I didn't have much to say. I just listened to their man-chatter. But one conversation got interesting. They were complaining about men having to pay for dates (I don't remember their exact words, but they weren't happy with it since women were making just as much money as men in our line of work).

I chimed in with this one and said, "I don't like to be with a cheap man."

Oh boy, they got ALL OVER me (group-think and pack-power) with how sexist I was being, I made just as much money as them, and why should THEY have to pay, etc., etc.

So I explained, from my experience, that when a man is cheap with his money, he is also cheap in bed.

That just about threw them for a loop. Stopped them right in their tracks. Not what they expected. LOL

All of them were very interested and wanted to hear more. So I explained that when I had dated a man who had a hard time paying for a date, or made a point to make a point that he was paying for the date, or who kept count on who's "turn" it was to pay for the date (yes, I dated that guy for 2 years off and on -- UGH!) in bed he acted the same way: it was all about him with little consideration of my needs -- and who wants to go to bed with THAT?

Haha! I still chuckle over that conversation. None of them had a response -- they were literally frozen in their tracks. They all just looked at me, looked at each other, and then walked away to go to back to their work and I could see the wheels in their head turning. (I hope I helped change their attitude for all the sista's they dated after that ;-).

I like your comment about a woman being a leader at work and letting go at home. I was able to do that with Scorpio. I remember one time going out, handing over the keys to my car, him gladly driving, me putting my seat back,exhaling and him observing me and grinning from ear to ear. I put my feet up on the windshield, layed back, just relaxed and he commented, "That's hot."

To me, I was just relaxing and letting go of my stresses; I can see now, to him, I was letting him be the man.

Good lessons to take with me into the future... thx.

Anonymous said...

Hi Mirror. If you are dating a man for four months, is ever acceptable to treat him once in a while? Men want to feel appreciated as well!

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous,
Well, yes and no. I mean, don't get me wrong, a guy deserves something for all his efforts, especially a gentlemen. And yea, you can treat and pick up the tab for special occasions or minimal items once in a while.

However, a gentlemen . . he won't really like that. He won't really be comfortable with that and it'll seem somewhat awkward to him, letting a woman provide for him.

So my suggestion is, if you want to make the man feel appreciated in some way after a significant amount of time because he's been good to you, rather than buy him dinner - cook him dinner instead.

I know a lot of men that freak out and get excited about home cooked meals. Particularly one's tailor made just for them. When a guy sees you putting hours of work and thought and preparation into a meal like that for him - it really does make him feel like a man and it really does make him feel special.

Particularly single men that live alone off of pizza, hoagies and chicken wings all the time.

Find out the man's favorite meal, go buy everything necessary to throw it together, learn how to cook/prepare it really well, to his specifications, make desert to go along with it - and follow it up with a back rub on the sofa.

It sounds simple, but a man's eyes light up like a Christmas tree when he sees that, "Wow, you did all of this for me?! This looks fantastic and it smells great! I didn't know you could cook like this!"

I've never received one complaint, LOL ;-)

Anonymous said...

Thank you Mirror for answering my question. What I use to do was once a blue moon treat my guy when we went out to eat. He never said No! I did it just to show that I noticed his kindness and I wasn't taken him for granted. My cooking skills are OKAY.. Lolol! It could be better but I will make sure the next worthy guy experience my cooking. Lol! Thanks Mirror

Mahsan said...

I just met a guy through online dating last week

AnonWoman said...

Mirror and all the ladies who are reading this today 14 February 2013.

Talking of dates, if you haven't got a date tonight, then I myself wish you a happy Valentine's Day. Just because you've not got a date tonight don't be sad, you might meet someone amazing as soon as next week ;-)

I did get asked out tonight but it was an Internet date, first time meeting, and I thought, "ugh, I can't be doing with that on V. Day so I will stay in on my own instead, as they'll be no weirdness there guaranteed!

AnonWoman

Anonymous said...

I second what AnonWoman said

Anonymous said...

Mirror,

I have a question for you. I noticed that the Ketel one commercial was not only geared towards men, but a certain type of man and when I say that I mean Caucasian. I have dated a lot of men, mostly black and I must say that I have come across a lot of the “man babies” that you discussed. Truthfully, I can only remember one man baby not paying for my date (loser). Don’t get me wrong, I have dated men that are ready, willing, and able to pay for everything all of the time, but those were mostly African men. The majority of the African American men that I dated seemed to feel as if though after paying for even the cheapest date, they expected a standing ovation or some kind of prize and I always express my gratitude. So I thought of something, I am African and in Africa the majority of the commercials have Africans in them. This means that products are targeted towards African men and or African women as a whole. In the states, there are commercials such as the Ketel one commercial that are geared towards Caucasian men and then there are commercials like some of the McDonald’s ads that are targeted towards black men. I really can’t think of any commercials that show African American men being gentlemen, at least not lately and commercials like those are few and far between. I’ll give an example of one of the McDonalds ads. There was an ad that I saw in which the African American man was taking an African American woman on their first date. Yes, horribly, the date was to McDonalds. He proceeds to ask her what she wants from the menu and she says the 20 piece chicken nuggets, which were only $4.99 I believe. The ad then focuses on the man’s thoughts in which he now views her as an even better form of herself (added lighting, hair blowing in the wind) and he says something along the lines of, wow not only is she beautiful she is smart, my kind of woman. At the end, they walk away happily. To me, this will affect both the African American man and the African American woman’s psyche in saying that the man should do the bear minimum to impress the woman and that the woman should be as cheap as possible to get the man to gain further interest in her. Do you think that ads like this affect the African American man’s psyche and make them not want to provide to the best of their ability?

Oolala

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Oolala,
Well, there is an African man, a man of color, in the Old Spice commercial depicted here and in it, he is conducting himself like a gentleman.

But I hear what you're saying and I can't speak to what takes place in Africa, however, here in America, I think the problem you speak of, of African men doing very little as men and then expecting a standing ovation for it. . .I think here in the States that has to do with their upbringing many times.

Because unfortunately, and I don't want to start anything racial here, I'm simply sharing my observations from what I see around me, in my immediate vicinity with regards to this - there is a true breakdown of the family unit, particularly in African American families (as well as in Caucasian, if you ask me).

But in Caucasian families, it seems that even if there's a breakdown of the family unit, many times, the father still plays a role in the child's life (the boy). In many African American families, many of the fathers play less of a role. As a result, what you're left with are many young African American boys . . . that have absolutely no positive male role model in their life.

No male mentor in their life to teach them what it really takes to be a man.

But again, that's not ALL African American families here. But in the poverty stricken areas, you see a lot of that. You see a lot of children, both Caucasian and African American, in poverty stricken areas that have no positive male role model in their life whatsoever.

And when a man, a young boy, has no adult man in his life to be an example of how a man should be, how a man should treat a woman - as an adult, he has no concept of how to behave as a real man should.

And regarding the McDonald's commercial, it may be the "poverty" aspect that they zeroed in on there. And that's terrible if you ask me, if that's the case. But it may be that they made an association between "poverty" and "African Americans" and felt that by showing a positive example of male behavior at a McDonald's (an affordable place to eat) that they felt this was a positive marketing effort.

Tying their product, an economically affordable product, to a targeted audience that they felt was suffering from poverty and unable to afford anything else.

And I sincerely hope that's not the case as I don't like the idea of picking out one race and associating them with poverty. Because where I live, I see poverty, a lot. And I see it in both Caucasian and African American families.

And yes, I think ads such as that can affect a man's psyche - both Caucasian and African American.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the great response Mirror. Makes a lot of sense. The family unit in Africa is very strong and most of the men do have their fathers in their lives so maybe that why MOST African men know how to treat women a lot better than SOME African American men.

Oolala

Gemini 50 said...

@ Ms. Mirror,

I was able to share this information w/Virgo tonight, and thought I’d share.

We were talking about him coming up, and somehow got on to going out to dinner and the woman paying. (I can’t remember if it was “me” paying, or Virgo was talking about women in general).

Anyway, I explained my new belief of not paying for dates when I go out with a man, and he freaked. He wanted to know where I was getting this new information from; you can imagine his response when I said, “the internet.” Haha

He made the typical case about women in the workforce making the same amount of money, etc. I listened, and then shared my new found knowledge with him.

I can’t remember my words exactly, but I used the information from the article and the discussion board to explain that I have finally realized how my behavior has messed things up in my dating world, and how women’s lib has been wonderful for women’s equality where it should be applied, but not in the dating world.

I explained how women HAVE to go to work these days, confirmed they had to be strong and are leaders at work, but when they come home they want to put that aside and be a woman with their man.

Virgo put up a good fight, but I could slowly see he was absorbing what I was saying. He finally had an “aha” moment when I used Peter’s words to explain that when a man uses his manly skills to take care of a woman, treat her like a lady, show her he appreciates who she is and wants her to choose him over all others, then in the home, she will take care of him. She will use her womanly skills to provide a comfortable home and she will give him the same (if not more) effort to show her appreciation of him.

I explained the cost of the date did not matter -- it could be a $3 sandwich or a sandwich he made from home. It was the behavior of being a man who offers his best to a woman that she will appreciate and respect from a man. I think he got it, or is stewing over it.

You have said in other posts that good men can change with the encouragement of a good woman. After my divorce in my 20’s I swore I would never try to change a man again (I tried so hard with my x-husband -- it doesn’t work). I can honestly say I never tried to change a man again – if it wasn’t working out, I just shut down emotionally and eventually the relationship died a slow painful death.

By becoming equals in our relationship (skills I am learning from disappearing board), Virgo and I are not changing each other, rather, I feel we are changing because of each other. (We’ll see.)

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Gemini50,
And it's a nice, equal balance of power, wouldn't you say? He gets to be a man, you get to be a woman....and hopefully, the two equal halves eventually come together to form the whole :-)

Anonymous said...

"So in my career, I’m comfortable wearing the pants and assuming a leadership role and exhibiting masculine energy. But in my personal life and in my love relationships, I’m a woman. It’s the one area of my life where I prefer to relax, breath and relinquish control and the lead over to a man. It’s one area of my life where I let a man be a man and let myself be a woman."

ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha we'll see how well that works out

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous,
Poor L - not done with your freak show yet, eh? Maybe you should stop jealously obsessing over my life and get that sex change that you're apparently longing for instead ;-)

Gemini 50 said...

@Ms. Mirror,

You've really pissed some silly bastard off, haven't you? ;)

Poor person can't handle strong, healthy and lovely people supporting themselves, leaving losers behind in the dust to wallow in the results of their actions.

Hey Anonymous Feb 22, 3:52: Listen to some Eric Church, maybe that'll put some hair on your chest.

Or grow up and be part of the conversation -- don't you have anything of value to contribute?

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Gemini50,
Actually, what we have here is a very jealous, insecure female launching a personal attack on me and childishly pulling her friends in on the mix, too, male and female ;-)

Her insecurities cause a deep desire to control, a desire to have the ability to "push people's buttons" as she refers to it.

So ladies, take note. Behaving like a "psycho" only leads to you looking, acting and behaving much like what we've been seeing here on the blog this past week.

NOTE TO SELF, LADIES: Never go "psycho," it's not very becoming and it completely gives you away as insecure, jealous and emotionally unstable, as you can clearly see, LOL ;-)

Peter said...

@MOA and ladies

This may give some insight into why modern dating is going the way it is. Arguments such as who pays, who leads and who takes the masculine role flow from these beliefs(also those like them). A friend explained modern views on the subject to me.

Modern women are supposed to be what they call "Power Women”, they dominate, and they take a masculine role. Not just in career but in life in general. The basic concept here is the view that only women can really be in charge in the modern world. They have the soft skills and the ability to be masculine. These women see testosterone as a poison damaging to society.

In reverse these women expect men to adopt what they call "New Masculinity". Men are now expected to be feminine adopt soft feminine skills and mannerisms. Confidence and maturity is all that is allowed. Men are now expected to talk to other men "as women" do in regards to sexuality, and further they are expected to have comfort being feminine with each other.

There is apparently a rising trend in both areas. More men from 25 up to over 40 are embracing this "New Masculinity". Increased males dressed in feminine fashions, increased male grooming products that were previously mostly for women such as male make up etc. Men now preferring to live with each other rather in "units" rather than making it in the world in the traditional way.

On the female side women are aiming to look and dress as men. A recent survey found that women with male features are seen as more attractive and accepted socially than softer looks. So we actually want women to look like men too? Is that the modern way now? Women now are demanding that men give up a career to stay at home. Nothing wrong with that but it illustrates the point in a changing role IMO. These women expect men to take charge of their appearance as women do and be feminine inside and out. Men are expecting to take the female nurturing role WITH OTHER MEN.

I experienced this first hand when out shopping with my female friend. Now my shoulders are WIDE. Very much too wide for most clothing brands. I fitted an extra large t-shirt and it exploded open on the shoulders completely ripped. I asked one of the store assistants what went wrong with the extra large her reply was "oh men shouldn't be that way now, not how it is, you don't read magazines do you? It’s all about the skinny guy". So I had idea what to say and had to buy the shirt as it was me that damaged it due to being apparently being too big because I don't read what men are supposed to look like. My friend outlined it for me "In modern masculine terms physiques a no longer accepted in that way now”. Right is that so? My friend opposes these views but she admits that’s how society is going. She further pointed out look at movies, women fight; male heroes are the skinny guys. So it's now not acceptable for men to look like men?

I don't know if I'm looking forward to what society is becoming, disagree if you must, but none of this feels natural to me.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Peter,
LOL, you got me with the skinny jeans look on men. I absolutely DESPISE that little smurf look along with the Justine Bieber haircut. Ugh.

Don't get me wrong, a polished looking man is nice to look at as a woman - but polish yourself AS A MAN - NOT A WOMAN.

I see these men in skinny jeans and I'm like, "Good lord, I bet I could snap him over my knee." LOL ;-)

As for me personally - I prefer my men straight up - as men. I don't want to be walking around with some skinny, tiny little guy that's carrying a man bag and is more worried about his hairstyle than I am.

It's a huge turnoff to me when I see men exhibiting far too much femininity as opposed to capitalizing on their masculinity.

And another point you mentioned is an absolute must for me - broad shoulders. When a man has no upper body that resembles that of a man, I just can't get into it, LOL.

But hey, to each his own. Times they are a changing - and not for the best if you ask me.

Peter said...

@MOA

I'll put it how I have it on the looks issue. I wear Jeans, Boots(not heavy duty steel caps kind) and a fitted muscle t. Its a very simple look, well fitted clothes that shape my build with a mans hair cut not one of the boy kind you see now. Still very much polished military but I do have stubble,not a fan of a smooth shave unless a formal situation demands so. I polish as a man and don't need any designer look to show anything, simple fitted high quality clothes, and my presence do that. I don't feel the need to be completely polished like that but still well polished in what do present.

What annoys me? Jeans down a guys ass and boxers pulled with t tucked into it. Get a belt it's called underwear for a reason, it goes under what you wear LOL. Not put out for me to see LOL.

Anonymous said...

Hi MOA - I posted this question under the "what does it mean when he..." page but for some reason it never showed up, so I thought I might repost here. If you're in the casual dating stages with a guy but he is only calling/texting to arrange for dates (and nothing else), how can you inspire him to text you more often in between dates to ask about your day/weekend etc?

Or do you let him do that more in his own time?

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous,
A man needs to move at his own pace as we all do, and you cant make anyone love you or want to be with you.

Keeping that in mind, you can drop hints and guide him. You can tell him that you you rather speak than text and invite him to call. If he still texts, you dont respond to those. You prompt him to call by only making yourself available to phone calls and not texts.

DAA said...

What if the guy's budget is sort of limited? And if the girl is even more financially capable then he is?

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@DAA,
As stated in the article...a true gentleman will still want to provide as he realizes that his masculinity is closely associated with this concept. A gentleman would consider it emasculating to permit a woman to provide for him.

Even with a limited budget, two coffees and a pastry can be done for $10 or $15 dollars, two tickets to a movie can be done with $20 and two ice cream cones can be purchased for under $5.

There's really no excuse for a man to not make some sort of effort on the woman's behalf. Particularly if he expects to receive sex and access to your body. You have to give to receive.

WISE OWL said...

A STORY OF LUNCH>>>>>Scorpio me..met a man online had interesting chats for about 10 days and 2 phone calls,and asks for a first meet for coffee..when are you next in the city? Arranged a time 4 or more days after. When we met I had just finished my business matters and he asked me where would I like to go for a coffee...oh anywhere but you know I really feel like a macca's shake cos Im so hungry I replied. Oh no that wont do- wouldnt you rather a gently stirred fried vegies with a little tofu and some green tea? UM ERR...well that does sound delicious, and before I knew it he whisked me away in his car to trendy little place 5 mins away and said do you mind if I order? no noodles I said (Im gluten free) I didnt even see him order?? had a great flirty meal, he sat next to me...they know me here- I always have the same thing..and he must have paid when he got up to get toothpicks. Man what a gentleman, and a typical Cancer in ensuring his companion was well fed and cared for. I was impressed! ...and I left a msg online to say thanks so much for lunch...he left one to invite me to his place to cook for me....I left msg declining-thanks for the invite but that sounds like a setting for a seduction and you know I will not come to your place until I know you a lot better. And then we chatted online the next day and he said,"I knew you were going to say NO...(and a bit later)...well next lunch is your shout"!!! umm he didnt even invite me, and just implied if we were to see each other for a second time....actually for a first real date, I would have to pay. I was taken aback and said well I dont have any money for lunches out atm. He said well its only $20, and I said something like well that is something to think about...and changed the subject. He has told me he has 19 contacts, but only chats to me and one other cos I am interesting (no Im not that gullible).....but apparently not worthy of another $20 lunch, His mood has been dampened by my refusal to go to his place, his online conversation not as fun. What should I do next? I do like him, and he says he likes me, and he has said he doesnt want women who want to jump into bed with him...)no Im not that gullible)

Is he trying to test me- I felt that there were a couple of little tests going on that day. So what is my course of action? Ignore him until he asks me on a real date? Go on chatting if he initiates conversation? Cos Im certainly not paying!

LOVE YA WORK Mirror...dont let the idiots get ya down...hey you have the power to accept a comment or not..why do you let them on YOUR page-just delete them cos we are not interested in idiots putting down your advice. We love you and need you!x WISE OWL

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Wise Owl,
Good for YOU! If this guy is arrogant enough to think that lunch has the same value as access to your body, he's out of his mind, LOL.

I don't think I'd waste my time with this one dear. This is NOT a good sign after the first date. This guy has "bump and dump" written all over him. (i.e. after sex, he'll disappear)

If he can't even invest his time and some gentlemanly behavior into the dating/courtship process - he'll NEVER make any real investment in a relationship. He's a waste of time. It's not about money, you can buy your own damn lunch if you want to. It's about his "willingness" to "invest" - and his behavior is signaling that he's "unwilling" to make any "real" investment in a true relationship.

And yes, he's testing you - testing to see how gullible and controllable you are and whether or not it's going to be easy to manipulate you to get his way here.

Regarding the comments here, yea I know I can zap them and trust me, many times I consider doing just that, LOL. But the thing is, everyone's entitled to their opinion and I don't want to be accused of censorship here. As a result, I publish them - then provide my rebuttal ;-)

If I didn't, next thing ya' know, they'd be showing up here accusing me of only publishing comments that speak in my favor, LOL.

Can't please them all I suppose. And thank you for the support :-)

Gemini 50 said...

@ Ms. Mirror,

Ok, I need some help. Virgo is coming in Friday night for 5 days. You know the tug of war we've been having w/power struggle, and I've been very clear with him re: my new behavior of not paying when out on a date.

A couple things I need advice on:
1. He wanted to bet that something I ordered would not be in March 18 as scheduled. He wanted to bet dinner out. (I know the wager was due to my "not paying when out on a date anymore" stance.) I kept telling him I wasn't really interested in the bet, but he insisted, so I played along hoping that my item arrived. Well, he won. My ordered item is not in (and won't be until April). I guess I have to pay this one... damn, live and learn. Or, do I? (He had mentioned once that maybe he'd still pay if he won, and I'm hoping he takes the opportunity to step up and show me he wants to be my man.)

2. We will be going to store to get lobsters and steaks to cook at the house. Do I pay for that? If I pay, am I breaking my rule and setting myself up for a lazy weak man? I really don't want a stand-off at the cash register. Ugh! (I know, what you are ALL thinking (lol). I'm asking myself the same thing: Why am I even doing this with this guy??? And I guess I can answer it too -- because I thought he could turn himself around. But as the day of arrival gets closer, I am starting to freak.)

I have made lasagna, will have all the food he likes/wants, as well as his beverages of choice in the house. For Sunday, I have made up a cool Easter gift (coffee cup w/his initial that I'll fill w/almond kisses and jelly beans w/5 fabulous cigars w/little blue wind up bunny inside... He'll have everything he needs at the house for a comfy relaxing extra-long weekend, how do I "happily and confidently" stand my own when we are out?

We are also planning a trip to a brewery in Boston... How do I hold back and let him pay for admission, etc?

Guilt is my demise -- it has been at the root of giving up my SELF since childhood :( I feel guilty expecting Virgo to pay for anything while visiting here. He is my guest and has the cost of the flight... But if I don't stick to my guns, I feel I will fail myself.

I just know he is going to test me, and this will be "do or die" (for me). I just know it.

thx, and SUPER HUGS! :)


The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Gemini 50,
First it'll help to switch gears here..you're perspective. You need to be the observer here..he needs to be the impresser. Don't worry about what he thinks about YOU, worry about what you think about HIM.

This is HIS do or die moment dear...not his.

It's time for him o PROVE he's a man that can, and is willing, to make you happy. This is his test, not yours.

Once you grasp and accept that and you place yourself in that frame of mind, you can hold your word on his silly diner bet. He obviously feels the need to be able to make you grovel here, so give him that one - YOU prove your willingness there.

Next, the steak and lobster..don't reach for your wallet. Test HIM. If he mans up, thank him and show you admire and appreciate that and his willingness to do so. Be very positive and encouraging. In other words, he'll deserve an go stroke for that one...so give him one.

If he doesn't man up there, say nothing, pay half. Don't get angry or emotional, but don't give ego strokes or admiration either. Selfish actions don't deserve positive rewards. So remain quiet, day nothing...and let it sink in with him the reality of the less than admirable impression he made.

There should be no guilt here. YOU gave this man a second chance after HE disappeared and disappointed you once already. YOU are making him lasagna. YOU took the time to be thoughtful and prepare a gift for him. YOU stocked the house with comforts he'll enjoy and YOU opened up your home to a man that's let you down before.

It's a fair and very equal trade off dear. Honestly, he should feel lucky to even be there given his past history here. What the hell do you have to feel guilty about sweetie,LOL? You've shown this man nothing but kindness, forgiveness, attention, compassion and thoughtfulness - AFTER he hurt you.

He's received plenty here, trust me.

This is HIS walk brought he fire dear..not yours. You'll be making up your mind once and for all about this man this weekend. And hats how you look at this ;-)

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

This stupid auto correct, LOL. "This s HIS walk through the fire...not yours. And that's how you look at this ;-)"

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

Gesus I hate these things, LOL..."This is HIS do or die moment...not yours."

WISE OWL said...

my ex taurus popped in today..would you ever expect a woman to pay for a date I asked...oh no he said Im from the old school and Im a gentleman, I would always pay. Update to my 1st meet with Cancer man March 24 2013 he has not initiated any online communication this past week since our first date...you are right he knows he wont be getting any dessert from me so he has gone quiet...by the way how on earth do you get the little pic to the side of your comment like MASHAN FEB 13 above. thanks WISE OWL x

Gemini 50 said...

@ Ms Mirror

Thx. I will read over and over until it sinks in.

Re:guilt, I was raised on it. Actually told over and over again as a child that I owed my mother for my life. On birthdays was told my mother should get the present. Was threatened to be sent away if I don't behave and worked like the dickens to keep everyone in the family happy.... and thus easy bait for grandfather's sexual abuse.

So, I fight it. And good thing is I am able to self talk me when I recognize it. I can see it, but need to practice tools to stop it. So thx.

Today is last day of invisalign... I m so happy for future!

Sitting in or tho chair now... love to all!

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Wise Owl,
That appears through the creation of a Blogger profile.

http://www.ehow.com/how_2016021_create-blogger-profile.html

Jacky said...

This is true. You give a good suggestion for opposite sex that who is going to pick up the entire tab. Women not interested to date again with the man might offer to pick up the entire tab is a good idea. Man is self-esteem creature, they like to pay dinner for women. So what you do at there is to further or terminated the relationship either.

djbuck1 said...

I attempted to post a comment before, but I must have done something wrong. Let me synopsize it.

I am astonished that this discussion is even taking place.

The man pays, always. Period. End of discussion.

Almost.

What are you thinking . . . "gentlemen." She's a lady, not a prostitute. Her favors do not come with the meal. Dear God, if you really think you are owed anything other than the pleasure of her company, why not just offer to pay her for sex and have done with it?

The woman ALWAYS chooses when and upon whom she will bestow her favors.

If you're too cheap to pay for a meal, God help her, IF she's foolish enough to stick around you. And if you think she "owes" you anything, then God help you, for you, Sir, are fast on your way to becoming a cad.

As the old saying goes, if you can't stand up and be the man she needs, then sit down so she can see if there is a real man somewhere behind you.

Dismissed.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@djbuck1,
This is hilarious:

"if you can't stand up and be the man she needs, then sit down so she can see if there is a real man somewhere behind you."

I can't even tell you the horrid stories I've seen here regarding this issue. And it's two fold amazingly enough:

1) Men argue that after women's liberation, it's perfectly acceptable for a woman to provide for them and, in fact, they feel entitled for her to do so (not realizing it signals their lack of masculinity to a woman).

2) I've had many a woman appear on this site to argue their right to. . .well. . .err, act like a man and be the provider, LOL.

Just yesterday, on this post:

http://www.aphroditeastrology.com/2012/09/he-is-not-into-you-relationship-red.html

A woman shared this story in the recent comments there:

"There's a guy I've been dating and on the 3rd date, he joked that he didn't wanna be my sugar daddy, so asked me why don't I pick up the check. So I paid for the both of us even though we shared a meal. Another time, he didn't wanna drive from the suburbs to the city to meet me because he just drove 3 hours yesterday and he has a messed up back. Then I stayed over and we made out but didn't have intercourse, he asked if I wanted . . something for sleep so I mentioned chamomile tea. He said he's too tired to make tea. The next morning he mentioned how me parking in his buildings garage costs $16 and that the train and bus come right to his building. Later he texts me that if I wanna be his only girlfriend that we need to have sex regularly."

Has your jaw hit the floor yet, LOL?

Mine used to when I read those types of stories and accounts of modern male behavior. . . but no more - I see it EVERY SINGLE DAY here. And it turns my stomach.

And believe it or not, she ended the comment with this:

"We have a lot of things in common and have fun together but is he a loser?! Please help!"

She's sure he's a loser, but wants help to keep him.

Sigh.

There are literally hundreds of stories like that here.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@djbuck1,
I meant "She's unsure if he's a loser, and wants help to keep him."

djbuck1 said...

MOA, I think she is sure. She's just ignoring the evidence plainly before her eyes. She wants assurance from someone that what's happening ISN'T happening.

This astonishes me. Women have real power over men. You can manipulate us like we are little children if you've a mind to.

It's amazing that your gender has stopped capitalizing on this. Well . . . some of your gender.

Gemini 50 said...

@djbuck1

"The man pays, always. Period. End of discussion."

I am curious. Where did this belief come from for you?

"Dismissed" hmm... powerful without drama. Perfect.

djbuck1 said...

Thank you Gemini 50. Addressing the troops so to speak. ;-)

By the way, I agree wholeheartedly with Peter. "National service" (i.e. the draft) never should have ended. I look at some of the guys coming up below me in my civilian job. They're bright and well intentioned, but discipline is spotty,and they have no idea with respect to what constitutes leadership.

djbuck1 said...

Gemini 50, in answer to your question, I would say the (now dying) traditional culture, which traces its roots in this area back to the "courtly love" of the Middle Ages, reinforced by my Father and later by my training as an Officer and Gentleman. I suspect that it may also be instinctive/bred in.

I provide a basic necessity (food). This is primal. I expect nothing but the pleasure of her company (and women are wonderful to be with-- well-- most of the time). I acknowledge her power of choice, which she has anyway. She recognizes that, and there is mutual respect. I await her choice. You may be surprised how quickly that happens.

Every woman in touch with her real nature wants her Knight. Don't think for one minute they don't. They don't have to say it. Just watch how they react to a gentleman.

If I have wanted a woman in my life, it has been easy to attract one. I just have to be who I am. My gender is making it incredibly easy for men like me to find mates.

By the way, thanks guys. You just keep right on with your behavior, too. And watch what doesn't happen.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

Fellas (and Ladies),
Pay heed to this man's words:

"My gender is making it incredibly easy for men like me to find mates.

By the way, thanks guys. You just keep right on with your behavior, too. And watch what doesn't happen."

Translation: All of the cavemen out there that are using "pick up" tactics and treating women poorly - are only making it easier for true gentleman to win women away from you ;-)

And on that note, the "pick up" note (yea, I know all of you guys from the "pick up" forums are here, I'm not an idiot). . .realize this. Realize what your membership to a "pick up" forum says about you to a woman. It says this:

1) I cannot meet a woman based solely on who I am as a man. Instead I need to use manipulation tactics to get a woman.

2) I do not feel like a man, I feel like a little boy. As a result, I need to go about dating as if I'm a little boy playing a game and as such, I treat dating like a sport, a competition, and not like real life.

3) I'm not a man to be taken seriously. I'm looking to be a "pick up" artist, a cartoon character of sorts that's a layer shooting only to get laid. I'm not a man looking for a relationship.

4) I fail so miserably at being a man that I feel the need to use cheesy tactics to get a woman.

All of that energy some of you men put into using tactics and tips and manipulation to get women? You're complicating things.

All you need to do is:

1) Talk to a woman
2) Treat her well
3) Take her to dinner/drinks and make her feel special
4) Compliment her
5) Call her
6) Ask her on dates

That's it guys. It's really that simple.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

Fellas (and Ladies),
I forgot, there's one more to add to the list of what membership to a "pick up" forum says to a woman:

5) I lack confidence. I am insecure. I try to overcompensate for this by the use of manipulative tactics and false bravado when dating.

djbuck1 said...

MOA, one of the comments from gentlewomen I have heard over and over? "No man has ever treated me like this before." Unspoken on my part: "You're dating the wrong males-- and that's your choice."

djbuck1 said...

MOA, I'll add one more to your list 6. "Listen to her."

The knee jerk male reaction is to dismiss what a woman says as so much yik-yak. But I am surprised (and sometimes astonished) at how much a woman will tell you, even on a first date.

Now granted, I'm not a predator, and I think I inspire trust, but good heavens. She gives you a road-map of likes, dislikes, experiences good and bad, how she "sees" things, and (frankly) the all-important Red Flags, if any. And unless you are an inert dolt, her body language, tone and diction is a constant stream of information about how she perceives YOU.

Now, if all you want is to bed her, I suppose this information is irrelevant, though a real predator will use it to ingratiate himself. Unfortunately.

But if you like women (which I do), they are very, very interesting to listen to. And that's how you learn about them. But I guess that's too much trouble.

Peter said...

@djbuck1

"one of the comments from gentlewomen I have heard over and over? "No man has ever treated me like this before." Unspoken on my part: "You're dating the wrong males-- and that's your choice."

I've had this exact experience and this exact thing happen to me and what goes through my head is the same. However this tends not to come from ladies my age that I've dated. I've had it from older ladies I've dated.

Women my age tend not to see being a Gentlemen as something good. I've had talks with MOA before about women finding romance "weird". The reaction has been negative from a few ladies around my age that I've dated. Being a Gentleman doesn't seem to go down well in my age group as I've said. They associate it with a "nice boy" kind of image.

djbuck1 said...

Peter, I have to admit that I am now out of my depth. The notion that women would find romance weird is utterly alien to me. So what do they want? Bad boys? "Buddies?" Hook ups? What?

Gemini 50 said...

@ djbuck1 and Peter,

Love reading your stuff... keep it coming! :)

And thank you for responding to my question above djbuck1.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Peter, Gemini 50 and djbuck1,
LOL, Peter and I have had this discussion and I, as you djbuck1, am baffled by it every single time I hear it.

The only explanation I can offer would be this. The younger girls haven't been sh*t on enough by men yet. I hate to say it, but there it is, LOL.

These younger generations are blurring the lines. They think hooking up is dating. They think one night stands lead to long term relationships. They think being ignorant is being cool. They think being macho is being masculine. They think being a loose woman will get a man to like you. They think it's okay for a woman to act like a man and they don't understand that there are repercussions in love and from sex (lifetime scars that develop from reckless, careless behavior). They're focused more on having a good time and less on "bigger picture" concepts such as self respect, dignity and integrity.

Basically, some of these younger women (and men) haven't been in the trenches long enough to realize they want and deserve more.

I was in a similar place myself once. Living willy-nilly, out running around and having a good time. Then I got my heart broken. Then it was broken again - and again. Then years later I finally realized that that string of broken hearts changed me as a woman. And the broken hearts were a result of careless, reckless behavior in love and sex (on the part of the men I was involved with). And I, as a woman, had not realized my value yet at that time.

But once you see those repercussions from love and sex, you suddenly realize it's not all fun and games. It's serious stuff with serious consequences. (Sometimes those consequences being pregnancies, babies and the birth of children.)

As a result, you begin wanting and demanding more for yourself. Women begin valuing themselves more and men begin wanting to be more like real men.

So that's my best guess here for this somewhat new epidemic in younger generations. They're just REALLY young, mentally, emotionally, physically - just really very young. They don't value themselves yet and as a result, they don't value the things that are truly important in life - like respect, kindness, generosity, dignity, integrity, honesty - and treating one another well.

They're simply too young to see the value in it. But I imagine someday, with age, that will ALL change.

BUT I will say this. Even back some 20 years ago in my younger days - men took me on dates, bought me flowers, paid for dinners and made kind gestures that made me feel special and I, as a woman, appreciated it. Generation X wasn't a perfect generation, but we weren't quite as bad as the Millennials and Gen Y either, LOL.

Peter said...

@djbuck1

That situation is why I only date women 40 years old and above. There have been a few cases I talked about with MOA where romance with a woman around my age has created a negative reaction. There happens to be one lady who has commented here and observes the site who was one of those ladies I dated. I took her on a date and was a perfect gentleman. I even explained to MOA what happened on the date. However it would seem that this created some form of very strong negative reaction. She thought it was weird and wrong for a man to take the lead as a gentleman. She was a bit older then me too which is why the limit for me is set 40 and higher.

djbuck1 said...

This is like listening to a series of reports of disaster coming back from the front to the command post over the radio. The senior officers stand around asking,"Are they exaggerating, or is it really that bad." Then you see the medevacs going by . . .

If I was to date anyone under 40 ... well, I am sure there is a law against it. So I can't comment. Peter, I feel for you. Really.

Reflecting on MoA's remarks, I accept them as they are well thought out, based on experience and observation, and are a rational explanation.

Anonymous said...

The only edit I would like to see to this great article is to remove the James Bond example. James Bond did not "romance" women. It's an incredibly misogynistic series and hardly one that should be held up to men as an example of a gentleman. He loves 'em and leaves 'em without so much as a backward glance. His character is built around having no emotional attachment to the women in his life. In one movie with P*ssy Galore he practically rapes her until suddenly she starts "liking" it and in the latest installment **SPOILER ALERT: stop reading now if you haven't seen it!** the women states herself to be a sex trafficking victim so naturally while she's in the shower he stealthily goes into her apartment uninvited and welcomes himself into her shower to "assert his masculinity" in the most definite of ways. Finally, later when she is shot to death and spills some whiskey collapsing, he glances at her body and says "damn, what a waste of great whiskey." JB looks great in a suit, but he is no gentleman. Great assessment of how women feel about those so-called "Pick Up Artists" btw.

Vee said...

Miss MoA,
Regarding a man paying etc. True story. Met a guy last year and went on 6 or 7 dates. I should have listened to my gut because the guy was

kind of creepy, touching my shoulders, taking rest stops on benches when we biked or hiked in order to kiss (well that's not necessarily a bad

thing, but it was kind of rushing physical stuff and seems in hindsight to be PUA tactics to break the touch barrier), pulled a brush out of his

car to neaten his hair (not very manly, right?), suffered bugs because didn't want bug spray on him, was very secretive about dating with his

kids to the point where he hid in barn to call me!
Anyway, he did pay for dates and did act respectfully UNTIL.... I was stupid enough to have sex with him. The very next date the tide turned.

He left me at his door while he was watching TV for at least a couple of minutes (I was thinking maybe he was in the shower), then he shushed me

while he watched A COMMERCIAL with a raised finger like hold on, (I made him turn the TV off), hinted that maybe we should stay in rather than

the planned date, tried to offer me a drink to get me to get settled and comfortable, took me to a sports bar where he left the table twice (I'm

guessing to check the scores), then the jaw dropping moment:
He started to tell me how busy he was going to be. School was starting and he was a teacher so back to work, his kid's sport schedules, blah

blah blah, and how we would be pretty limited seeing one another. (Now further perspective he wasn't much for phone calls since he had to hide

in a frikkin barn, and his old phone wasn't easy to text with so totally lazy with any communication).
I saw the big picture, got the message, interrupted his "this will be the score" talk, and then I paid for dinner to insult him! :) He was

totally taken aback. Finish it off - the guy was still too stupid to believe it when I got to my car and left - him calling out to me "aren't

you coming inside?"
I think paying for dinner is a powerful message to guy when you want to insult one, and letting him pay is more the role a woman should take.
Vee

Joshua said...

Great article you have up there.

It's tough to say.. but it's the universal truth that Men should pick up the tab and Women expect them to also.

So just be a man.. pay.. :)

Anonymous said...

Wow. What crap. I am so sick of all that fake "science" being thrown around. FYI I am an academic and scientist. You and the rest of pop culture are confused about the difference between THEORY and FACT. None of that stuff is FACT, it is watered down, cherry picked portions of theoretical work done by academics. They are PROPOSED explanations. There is nothing biological or primal about our behaviour when it comes to gender roles. Nor do we have any real knowledge of what true human behaviour is.

FACT: There is NOT ONE SPECIES on this planet where the female is dependent on the male. NONE. Why would humans be any different. There are only 2 types of interactions between beings - Egalitarianism or Individualism. NO OTHERS.

FACT: Women historically have provided for their families. What's sexist is you rewriting the past to repaint women as dependents of men when in fact they were laborers, workers, protectors, etc as much as men. Just written out and not glorified like men.

As for paying...women are not treated as equals today. This world revolves around men's wants and desires. COMMERCIALS like you used, TV, Magazines, Internet, porn, etc. Men are still not 50/50 in the home and there are very few who would actually be willing to compromise their careers for a woman/wife and/or children. They still want women to take care of all the dirty work that goes into the family. That is why women want men to demonstrate that they are not cheap or selfish. Too many men want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to have it all and want women to make it happen for them....pay half the bills, cook, clean, carry babies, babysit them, and stay perfect forever.

So yeah, women don't want to pay for dates cause it's the least men can do.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous October 25, 4:03PM,
Wow, that was. . .rather a rage filled dissertation.

"I am an academic and scientist."

Umm, okay - good for you. FYI - I'M A WOMAN.

"What's sexist is you rewriting the past to repaint women as dependents of men when in fact they were laborers, workers, protectors, etc as much as men."

Because I refer to gender roles, I've now suddenly rewritten the past and shown women as dependent somehow by doing so? So I'm guessing that means you don't feel that a woman's natural gender role of the past, be it primal or not, was actually valuable? I guess rearing children, feeding family, tending crops, caring for others, etc. - has no value in your eyes and is therefore, automatically deemed a wholly "dependent" role as a result?

No offense or disrespect intended (in spite of the fact that you've unleashed your disrespect and mocking tone onto me), but you honestly just sound like a raging feminist - a "feminazi" as some may say? And if you notice, at the very end of the piece, I am in no way shape or form, advocating that women depend on men. As a matter of fact, it reads as:

"Ladies, if he's impressed you and you want to see him again, let him be a man and provide for you by picking up the tab. If you have no intention of ever seeing him again, avoid making him feel used by offering to pay your half or pick up the entire tab."

In the end, we're both saying the same thing, so I'm not sure why there's such anger fueling your comment:

"women don't want to pay for dates cause it's the least men can do."

I feel the same ya know. Only I feel it's the least they can do because I feel many women, subconsciously or otherwise, instinctually feel that a man's masculinity is closely tied with his ability to provide (be a leader).

Leader, good provider = masculine "energy" male (fulfilling his natural gender role).

Submissive, lazy non-provider = feminine "energy" male (not fulfilling his natural gender role).

I really don't understand the anger here - nor do I feel compelled to form an understanding of it or your point, given that you chose to share it through a lens of borderline rage that's now radiating outwards into the ether like burning heat.

Hope you're feeling better soon.

Peter said...

@Anonymous “Academic”

Allow me to reply to your rather ill informed position on the stance of gender roles in natural species other than man. You would note if you took the time to investigate the site the MOA is has in fact many times warned women against dependency on men. You will find however that the use of gender roles as outlined by MOA on this site in line with natural observations of what is known as “gender compromise”. Where by species in nature both have a natural and different gender role in a relationship, dating or mating situation. When the natural roles are fulfilled in harmony there is harmony in mating. I will now inform you further.

However firstly..

“None of that stuff is FACT, it is watered down, cherry picked portions of theoretical work done by academics. They are PROPOSED explanations.”

I am sure an obviously skilled and intelligent academic individual such as yourself will acknowledge that much of the work in the academic publications is of this nature...which probably includes your own work. As you don’t provide your name I have no reason to believe that you have any notable work in any area and until you do provide evidence your view point here does in fact remain an opinion. I’m positive you know the standing of “opinions” in the academic world.

Peter said...

Cont....

As for out subject of gender roles as presented on this site allow me to illustrate merely one supported example from a close primate the Bonobo. As you love facts so much then you can try to refute the behaviour of this species but given the 98% identical genetics to humans you would have a hard time doing so. Observations of Bonobo communities have in fact provided many areas where females are in depended on males and also exist in “compromise” harmony mentioned earlier.

Indeed until Bonobo females have reached an age and status to command and compete for high status within the social group they are actually dependent on the male for food. A situation which leads to a kind of mutual sexual arrangement. Female Bonobos of low status(in humans substitute the term for the word insecure) will be liberal with sex in order to receive both protection and food. A situation where just as in humans males of that species take advantage of these low status females. There is ample evidence that women in this species use sex as a means to acquire and influence the males in the group.

The use of gender roles on this site is in line evidence based observations of Bonobo “fusion” communities or groups of extended breeding partnerships (or families if you will). These represent a fusion of gender roles where by a compromise is reached based on females performance of her role and a males performance of his. For example females perform the child rearing almost exclusively while males engage in feeding and provision. This is only one example for an exchange of gender roles. Further observation of Bonobo feeding patterns will show that males have priority to food. They must eat first then vacate the space for females. In deed sex and food is interconnected as females observed in this species will willingly mate with a male based on his amount of sugar cane that can be provided for her, she in payment for mating will be allowed to remove an adequate amount of food. The evidence for this sexual or gender role compromise and the use of sex by low status females to dominant food providing males is in high quantity if you care to look. I could go on listing many other species in which a compromise relationship occurs.

MOA proposes harmonious relationships based on accepting of natural gender roles and characterises. This is exactly in line with observed primate evidence. If you read the whole site you would have had a full understanding of the gender roles put forward by MOA. As such take your tone to a different location and please attempt to provide some of the facts you seem to like so much. Otherwise I suggest you refrain from commenting until you have all of the evidence and are all knowing.I see no reason to further comment to you and your emotion filled view point. I am surprised at the less than academic tone of your comment but academics do vary in status and quality. You choose wisely in remaining anonymous if this is a demonstration of your academic skill set. Until you can comment and engage MOA in a proper exchange of views then I suggest you withdraw from the site. My friendly advice you is not to rush into a discussion based of your emotional reaction and combined with an ill informed stance. Doing so will only compound and add to the inappropriate nature of your actions.

pisces girl said...

hey Mirror! its pisces girl here -missed ya! ive been so busy these last few months but im glad to see new postings on here i really do love coming on here. You have absolutely changed how i am in the dating world and helped me figure out what i should and shouldnt be doing when it comes to men and relationships. I wanted to tell you about one recent date i had with this Jamaican man. He has been wanting to get to know me and asked me if i wanted to go for lunch i said sure why dont you come on my lunch break from work and we can go somewhere downtown near my workplace. So he came to pick me up in his BMW -my best friend told me he has money because hes friends with her boyfriend and in the music industry. Anyways i agreed to it and he came to pick me up and he suggested the food court in the mall because he said he knows i dont have a lot of time but i suggested a restaurant instead. So we went to a nearby restaurant and the bill came and im not gonna lie i expected him to pay because it was our first date and i expect to be treated like a lady especially early on and it was only 54 dollars-so he put down 60 and thought that wasnt enough of a tip so he asked me just to put down the tip-i didnt have any cash though so i didnt put anything down for the tip. Anyways i seen him this past weekend (my bday weekend) he came out and we had all gone out and later at my girlfriends place we stayed up talking after her and her boyfriend went to bed. We were up till 6 or 7 just talking but then he said something that really turned me off. He wanted to "link" up the next day and do a movie and dinner and he mentioned if im gonna be treating him! lol i couldnt hide my dismay and disgust i was like really are you serious? you just finished telling me you have enough money that you dont have to work anymore and your trying to find out if ill be "treating you" on the second date!! my best friend said shes sure he was just testing me but i dont need a man to test me that early on. i only met him a couple weeks ago and hes already talking about money instead of trying to impress me -anyways i really dont see it going anywhere past friendship if that-hes got baggage too- a crazy bipolar sex addicted ex and two children with her plus hes got 10 years on me. I just cant believe how audacious some men are!!!

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Pisces Girl,
Forget him dear - don't even go there with him.

He may be playing a game here and attempting to discern if you're a gold digger or something, but if he's doing that, he's going about it ALL wrong. Like you said, he's more worried about YOU impressing him than he is about the impression of HIMSELF that he's giving YOU - and that's a sign of self-centered thinking.

Forget it, he's a lost cause, he's worried about himself here and he's signaling that he probably always will be - dating him would not be fun because HE is so focused on money. Which is ironic because he may be worried about gold diggers, yet HE is solidly focused on money himself...which would explain why he's probably attracting a ton of them to his door, LOL.

As a man, when you lead with "I have so much money I don't know what to do with it" - you're going to attract women to yourself that are seeking that kind of money. It's like fishing - you use different bait to catch different fish. So when he baits women with his tons of money, it should be no real surprise that he ends up with tons of gold diggers chasing him around, LOL. He's baiting women with money, then wonders why women who want money are swirling around him.

Either that dear, or he's "fronting" - he's got a fancy car and clothing and the appearance of wealth, but the reality could be that he hasn't paid his mortgage in two months, he's behind on child support to the tune of $20k, his car's in his mother's name, his credit stinks. . .and the money he has....is borrowed from credit cards he got years ago and is now running up to the hilt.

Careful dear - lots of smoke and mirrors out there, ya' know - lots of players "fronting" LOL ;-)

pisces girl said...

your absolutely right mirror like why bait with money if you dont wanna attract gold diggers and all his clothes are designer clothes-he lives with his brother here says he plans on staying and will buy a place but that he has a home in Jamaica im still trying to figure him out and what hes all about for all i know he could be fronting and actually in major debt . he was also texting me every morning to say good morning and today he didnt im sure he was again testing.. but yeah im just over them with their bullshit games and there stupid little tests -if they arent concerned with impressing me early on then they can keep it movin ...my friend thinks im too picky but thats probably why shes in a really lousy relationship with a man who doesnt pull his weight and leaves her angry and frustrated every weekend..id rather be alone than deal with a scrub

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@PiscesGirl,
"my friend thinks im too picky but thats probably why shes in a really lousy relationship with a man who doesnt pull his weight and leaves her angry and frustrated every weekend"

BINGO! She thinks you're too picky - so she suggests that you settle for something less like she is and be miserable just to be able to say you have a man? Yea umm, no.

That's basically what she's saying. She's telling you that you should be willing to settle for less. That you should be willing to tolerate poor treatment just to have a man around. That's major insecurity dear. Don't strive to be like her and don't let her words ring in your ear.

If you do, you'll be in a crappy relationship just like her, with a man who's full of crap (and himself).

pisces girl said...

your right mirror she is my bestie and i would hope she wants whats best for me but i think that she thinks i have impossibly high standards and she doesnt wanna see me alone forever. Shes right i do have high standards because im done settling -im done with the tears and heartbreak and being used and treated like shit..i think shes a smart girl because she too knows shes settling but she says she settles because of her daddy issues and because she doesnt wanna be alone and because she ''loves the kid'' (hes older than her but clearly she doesnt see him as a man and jokes about it all the time)-she doesnt have a lot of fam here and hes always around plus she admitted she likes to be in control and doesnt mind making more money because it gives her more control..yet she complains about him not pulling his weight all the time doesnt make sense.. today is my bday and i know im not getting any younger but i made the choice that i would rather be alone than settle for some loser whos gonna drain me of my time energy resources and give me next to nothing in return or worse cause me to be stressed and frustrated and angry all the time..this is now my relationship holy grail site where i came to find out whats acceptable and whats not and im so grateful that you do this mirror ...i realized how i was making so many mistakes before. i guess you live and learn. i told the jamaican yesterday on bbm that my ex was a liar a cheater and was cheap and those are qualities i cant stand in any man i hope he let that sink in

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@PiscesGirl
Happy Birthday Sista'!!

pisces girl said...

aww thanks Mirror i dont really know u but i feel like i do and i luv ya girl!you know the true meaning of sisterhood <3

Anonymous said...

Hi MOA,

I have a question on behalf of my brother. He was dating this girl last fall, and things were progressing fine (I was giving him dating advice and made sure he treated her well - paid for everything, initiatated dates, called her, etc.) until he invited her to attend a concert with him. His date seemed uninterested in going to the concert with him, but jumped on the opportunity for brunch. She suggested a REALLY expensive place for that but then threw in an OR she'd be o.k. with a "cinnabon." Both my brother and I were disappointed that she did not seem interested in spending time with him and only seemed excited about the brunch. I felt that it was not for her to suggest a restaurant, especially since she knew that my brother would be paying for it. I think if she was a real lady, she would have simply declined or accepted the concert (which was the main part of the date, not the brunch) and not suddenly taken on the masculine role of suggesting places to eat after she revealed that she would not be attending the concert.

Were we right to be turned off by this?

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous Jul 31, 11:56 AM,
"Were we right to be turned off by this?"

Certain aspects of it - yes. Let me explain. I often suggest that when a man offers a "lame" date request (like hanging out on his sofa for the evening), that they refuse the date and instead, suggest something else like dinner or a meal somewhere (so that they signal to the man that lame date requests won't be accepted, but formal ones will). So I don't consider suggesting something else instead as masculine when it's being done as a refusal to a lame date request (like hanging out on the guy's sofa for an evening). In that instance, it's meant to signal to the man that he has to "up his game" a bit.

However, I don't think a concert invite is a "lame" date request. I think it's a wholly appropriate one and can lead to an enjoyable evening together. And I'm not an advocate of picking a super expensive place as a date replacement because it sends the wrong signals - and also because, in your brothers case, his initial date invite wasn't a "lame" sofa date request to begin with.

"I think if she was a real lady, she would have simply declined or accepted the concert"

If the initial date request wasn't a lame one like hanging out on the guy's sofa, then I agree - decline the date. But I do often suggest that when a woman even declines a date, that she suggest another date and time for a date with the man (so that he doesn't think she's blowing him off or rejecting him entirely). So for instance, if she doesn't want a concert date, saying something like, "I can't make it that night, although I wish I really could. However, I can see you this Sunday if that's a good time for you." Or even, "I can't make it that night, although I wish I really could. However, I'm free this Sunday if you'd like to meet up for lunch or a movie or something."

I do advocate suggesting an actual restaurant if the man's date request is a lame one though, like the sofa date request. Because that's when it's necessary to signal to the man that sofa's won't work - but public places like restaurants will (so that the woman doesn't find herself in a compromising position with the man that might lead to sex too early).

So basically, what turns me off here isn't necessarily that she suggested a different date (although I don't think it was necessary for her to do that since he wasn't offering a lame date in the first place). What turns me off about her suggestion is that she chose a REALLY expensive place - or a cinnabon. To me, I smell "test" here LOL. I think she's putting him to the test over something, quite possibly his willingness to go out of his way for her - or on the opposite end of the spectrum - testing whether or not she can take advantage of the situation :-(

And determining that would depend on her other behaviors outside of this one. If she's signaling "high maintenance" in other areas and situations as well, then that's probably a red flag. However, if she's shown she can be a down to earth girl that likes a bit of special treatment from time to time, then it might not be so bad - see what I mean? It depends on her "overall" actions as a whole, and not necessarily one singular event. If "overall" she's acting high maintenance, then that's a red flag. If however, she's a down to earth girl that just likes special treatment once in a while, then that's not really that big of an offense, although I believe she went about it a bit clumsily and a tad offensive by being so obvious about it with a man that was treating her well to begin with.

Cont...

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

It's a tough call - ask your brother to take 20 minutes alone with himself and to think about it and her - and get in touch with his "gut" - and then listen to it. If his gut is sending off warning signs about this action of hers, he shouldn't proceed. If he comes away not feeling too bothered by it and possibly feeling maybe she's just seeking a much more "special" date with him, then it might be safe to proceed on one more date with her before reaching a final conclusion. But before deciding, your brother needs to get in touch with his own feelings about her and the matter without outside intervention - so that he makes a decision he's happy with and can live with in the end :-)

Anonymous said...

Thank you MOA. You clarified some of the questions I had about my brother's situation. He pretty much did everything right from the start because I was "coaching" him, ha ha! No sofa dates (he's not the type of guy to suggest that anyways), only proper dinner dates. I told him all my horror stories of being burned by douchebags so he was aware of what NOT to do.

"What turns me off about her suggestion is that she chose a REALLY expensive place - or a cinnabon. To me, I smell "test" here LOL. I think she's putting him to the test over something, quite possibly his willingness to go out of his way for her - or on the opposite end of the spectrum - testing whether or not she can take advantage of the situation :-("

That's exactly along the lines of what we were sensing except that we couldn't put into words so clearly as you did! Because my brother had paid for everything right from the start and invited her only on proper dates, both of us were sensing it was the latter. That's why we were rather disappointed by this... She basically had no need to test him for anything since he had already done everything correctly from the very beginning. So that left the other possibility. However, she was also dating other guys at the same time she was dating my brother so it could have also been a question of who would be willing to do the most for her or who she could take the most advantage of. I don't know.


My brother was really excited about the possibility of taking her to the concert because they had already been on several nice dinner dates by that time, and he wanted to do something else, something more special for their next date in addition to having a meal. But when she declined the concert and seemed only interested in the eating part, he was sort of upset about that as was I. I felt bad for him because it now seemed like she was in it only for what he could provide, not for his company or spending time with him.


We didn't really know how to proceed after she gave him the choice of the really expensive restaurant or a cinnabon so it was left at: "Seems like you're really busy (she mentioned she had church and also seeing other guys to my brother) so how about another time" to which she never responded. At the time, my brother didn't feel like being taken advantage of and it was stressful for him to compete with all the other guys she kept telling him she was dating so he decided he needed to take a break from it all.

In the spring, he decided to try contacting her again because he realized he did like her (apparently she's attractive) but she never replied (maybe she reads your site, MOA!) He came to me for advice after not receiving any reply for three months so even though I didn't think he was technically a disappearing reappearing man and had no need to apologize, he apologized anyways for being out of touch and that he'd love to take her out for dinner sometime. That was yesterday, and I don't know if he's received a reply from her this time around. I guess we'll find out.

I will forward this to my brother. My gut is telling me that she is not genuinely interested in him, only what he can provide for her and to me that is not a good sign. Even if she wasn't interested in the concert, if she was really into my brother, she'd want to spend time with him regardless of the activity, right? I kind of feel bad for him because he really likes her (well, her looks anyways!) and I don't think she feels the same way. I'm also not sure I'm giving him the right advice because I'm used to seeing things from the woman's perspective and am not used to thinking the other way around (from the guy's perspective,) but it's actually turning out to be a good exercise for me!

Anonymous said...

Hi Aphrodite, thank you for this article. I'd like your advice as I'm not sure what to do. I met a nice guy online and after getting to know him for a few weeks we agreed to meet for dinner. The conversation was great and we are compatible in many ways. But when the waiter came with the bill, he didn't insist on paying and expected me to pay half, which I did without hesitation. I am a successful woman with a great job and I am extremely independent, but I do prefer to feel that a man who is interested in me is keen to also treat me, at least in the beginning.

He was generous and gentlemanly in other ways and made it clear in messages that he really enjoyed himself and valued my company and wanted to see me again. The second time we met for tea and cake. Again I felt the conversation was fantastic and enjoyed his company. I was hoping that on this occasion he would offer to pay but again when the bill came he pulled out his portion and expected that I would pay mine.

I'm not really sure what to do next. I do like him, but I am from a culture that values generosity and I do personally prefer for the man to take initiative, at least at the start. He would like to see me again, and I would be happy to see him again. But I feel this is a subject that will continue to gnaw away at me unless I somehow convey my frustration. Any advice you can offer would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

D

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@D,
I understand your frustration and your feelings about the matter. Personally, I feel there's no bigger turnoff on a first date than a guy signaling we're "buddies" instead of bringing any romance into the picture to fire up a spark in me as a woman. Because for women this isn't about the money. It's about romance and being sparked by a kind gesture from a man - being treated special by someone, which in turn makes a woman feel special and endears her to that man.

If he keeps this up - you're going to feel like his buddy, his friend, and you're not going to experience any romantic feelings towards him whatsoever.

I don't understand men who act like this because that behavior is so self-defeating. You're dating a woman, which has obvious romantic undertones - yet you're treating her like a dude. Like you're out with some buddy of yours going halfsies on everything. And nothing can dampen a spark in a woman faster than a man signaling that there's no romance and everything's just "friends."

And while this may seem like something small and subtle at first, the reality is that it's CRUCIAL to pay attention to these very early signals like this. Because number one, it's going to dampen your romantic attraction for him and number two - in the bigger picture, his actions are signaling that he'll probably NEVER treat you like a lady, make a kind gesture for you, romance you, or ever do anything special for you. And if none of those things are ever going to take place. . .then why bother to date the man, ya' know?

If a guy isn't romancing you on the first few dates, chances are he never will.

And if you settle for "buddies" on the first few dates, and you settle for less than you deserve or want in a man, then months later when this is still taking place - you're going to feel like crap about yourself. You're going to wonder why he never does anything special for you, why he never romances you and why he basically never lifts a finger for you. And he's going to end up feeling like a good "buddy" to you instead of a romantic interest and any and all romantic feelings you had for him are going to disappear.

If I go on a first date with a man and he does this - there IS no second date. Years ago I dated a guy like this and ended up spending two years with him. And you know what? In the end, we were friends, there was no romantic interest on my part whatsoever and he was constantly selfish and rude in the same manner he was on the very first day I met him. Yea, he was a nice guy - as a buddy. But as a romantic interest, dating him was miserable. And eventually it got to the point where he wouldn't pull out his wallet at all and he'd sit there looking at me as if I was supposed to be the man in the situation and he was the woman. The feeling that brought to the surface in me was horrible, I hated it.

And mind you, this man was earning about $35 an hour as a union bricklayer. He'd sit there with $600 in his pocket at just about all times, and watch me pay his way. It was disgusting. And you know what else I observed that ultimately made me throw him the hell out of my life? On mother's day, same thing. This man was walking around the store with $600 in his pocket looking for a $3 card for his mother and grandmother, two who who would always go to great lengths for this man (yea, he was also a mama's boy), and I suggested gifts instead. Do you know what happened? I admired his mother and grandmother so much, and I was so embarrassed at the thought of showing up at each of their homes with a lousy card after all they'd done for him - that I purchased them each gifts myself while this man stood there and watched - and then when we got into the car, this jerk actually said to me, "Do you want me to put your name on the cards?" He wanted to take the two gifts I'd purchased and make it appear as if they'd come from him.

Cont. . .

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

That was it for me. I never wasted another ounce of time going on a second date with a man who wouldn't even make the kind gesture of paying for the first date to romance me and treat me like a lady. And when I saw what I saw with that man I was dating, it was apparent to me that he NEVER treated ANY women special in his life. He acted like they were all there to serve him and worship him while he never lifted a finger in return.

If a man treats you this way on a first date - pay CLOSE attention to that. Because chances are, he'll never treat YOU or ANY woman in his life like anything other than servants to him. Actions ALWAYS speak louder than words.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@D,
I just remembered this and I should make mention of it as an example of how far this type of selfishness can go. That man I was dating - long story short, he fell out of work years earlier before I met him and lost his home in the process. His grandparents bought his home from him so he wouldn't destroy his financial record, and his mother took him back into her home. He was probably about 33 or so at the time. So you see just how much his mother and grandmother had done for him.

Well, years after we broke up, he was still living at dear old moms, eating her food, laying around on her sofa and doing as little as he possibly could to help around the house. He was enjoying a free ride basically while he blew his money on senseless things for himself. His mom had actually gotten re-married during that time and her new husband was also now living in the home.

Long story short, a huge snowfall comes and the new husband goes outside to tackle a pretty big driveway that was at this home they all lived in, with nothing but a snow shovel. He asks her son to help, the man I had dated years earlier, and he made up some excuse and didn't help shovel this driveway.

His mother's new husband died in the driveway that day, shoveling snow, of a heart attack, while this guy was inside laying up on her sofa.

His mother sold the home, forced the son to leave, moved into a much smaller home - and would NOT permit the son to move in with her. So what'd he do? He moved in with a friend's ex wife, of course, who then bought him a car and most likely started paying his bills for him as well cause he quit working, too.

I have no clue what's become of him since, nor do I care, but I'll be honest -- there were many days where I felt sorry for the new girlfriend, his friend's ex wife, because I knew her as an acquaintance and she was a nice, sweet girl - too nice, too sweet, and very naive - who I felt he would just destroy emotionally, leaving only scraps behind once he was done with her and something (someone) better came along.

Not sure if that ever happened or not, but there is a local woman he used to be sexually involved with (hookups) and she lives down by my bank -- and I see his car there often, to this day, during business hours during the day (when his live-in girlfriend was most likely at work).

These men simply are not worth it - their selfishness is incredibly ugly and ultimately can be very damaging.

Anonymous said...

If the guy is selfish but has paid for most of the dates, and you have been dating for say 4-5 months and would prefer you pay for him sometimes, what do you do when he makes you feel like you should pay for him out at dinner or drinks, even when he is staying at your house for the weekend or you have made him feel special? He says he wants a partnership and it's real life and modern reality for the woman to pay sometimes, but he can afford to pay for me and we dont do many extravagant things so I feel he should pay.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous Mar 3, 9:14 PM,
If he wants a partnership, then he should actually commit to one. Because once there's a commitment in place, the dating phase is over and things can then progress to the next step. And once you've moved to a committed relationship, then it's okay to start splitting these types of things - sometimes.

And I say sometimes not because of money, but because as a woman, you can't let a man believe that once he's got you - he no longer has to try. Commitments need to be maintained and that involves an investment of both parties fulfilling each others emotional needs - and a heavy emotional need that many women have is one of feeling "desired and appreciated" by a man, and that involves special treatment. Much like a man wants home cooked meals from his committed partner, women want special treatment and a night out on the town once in a while from their committed partner. And it's the man place, by the Laws of Mother Nature, to take the lead role. So as a woman - just be mindful to never step so far across the line that YOU then takeover that lead role.

But if you've been dating for 4 or 5 months, he's staying at your house and you're cooking for him, cleaning up after him, and basically acting like a girlfriend or wife already - and there's no commitment in place - that's not good. Because in that scenario. . .he's getting the benefit of commitment type behavior from you (you caring for him and acting like a wife) when he's not actually providing that commitment back to you (him caring for you and acting like a provider).

So if you're only dating and he's not asked for a commitment, yet he's getting the benefit of room and board at your place and home cooked meals - and now he's becoming so complacent that he's expecting you to treat him and pick up the tab once in a while now, too. . .I wouldn't do that without a commitment in place.

If he truly wants a partnership, then he has to actually enter into one. If he doesn't enter into one, then all "wifey/girlfriend" type behavior should stop. No home cooked meals, no sleepovers, no cleaning up after him, no sitting around watching TV all day, etc. None of that should take place until a firm commitment is in place. And then once he gives you a firm commitment, you can pay once in a while (but only once in a while). But he gets none of that until he gives you something first - a commitment and an emotional investment into the relationship. If he's getting all of that up front without a commitment in place - then there's absolutely no reason for him to commit (because no special perks actually come with it and he's already getting everything he needs and wants upfront).

And I'd also ask him what his definition of a "partnership" is. That's a very vague term - and it's also one that can leave "commitment" entirely out of the equation. So I'd make him clarify that. When he says partnership, is he referring to a commitment? Or does he expect a "partnership" to have "commitment" perks, such as you cooking and cleaning for him and sexing him up. . .without him actually committing? Because if that's what he expects, he's expecting too much. He's expecting you to behave as if you're in a committed relationship, like a girlfriend or wife, while he actually does not give anything back by committing to you in the true sense of the word. He can't expect those perks on a regular basis without making a commitment.

Girlfriends and wives cook and clean and provide sex regularly - someone you're only casually dating should not be expected to do that for you. If he wants that, that's what maids and prostitutes are for. . .and he'd have to pay for them, too LOL.

Anonymous said...

Dear Aphrodite,

Thank you for your insights! You are totally spot on as usual, it really is about feeling like the guy I am with is a gentleman who values my company, and paying for the meal goes a long way toward accomplishing this. I am a very very generous person by nature so I think being with someone who isn't would be stifling over time.

It is just so difficult because there are always things that we need to compromise on and I second guess myself about whether something is a deal breaker. I worry that I shouldn't be too judgmental too quickly.

I rarely date, mostly because it is tough for me to meet men who are compatible with me on fundamental things, like spirituality, ambition, education, level of compassion and sensitivity to my specific cultural needs. So on the rare occasion someone comes along who clicks on a lot of the important fronts I am looking for, I wonder if the other annoyances, in this case the paying for dinner drawback, are as important.

I was a long time ago in a relationship with a man like the one you describe, who was so selfish and expected me to pay for things. To this day he has a big debt that he hasn't paid to me, nor do I want anything from him. I learned from that and several other wrong relationships what is right for me.

So this current guy is someone I was drawn to for all the right reasons. I don't sense he wants me to serve him, I just get the sense it was a matter of cultural difference. I'm living in London at the moment and he is a Brit, and I get the sense from a number of my friends that many British men expect to split the bill. I have a friend who is happily married to a man like this, she says that he doesn't only split money but everything else to, like housework, chores (etc), so in many ways she feels happier than she would be with someone from our traditional culture whose splurging on a woman often comes with the expectation she will fulfill a traditional cultural role.

But I also know that as you say, it is the small details that are apparent at the onset the set the tone of the relationship later on and typically a bond will end for a reason that was visible early on.

Bottom line, I have so many competing emotions on the subject and haven't yet figured out how to resolve them!

D



Anonymous said...

I want more than to keep a happy home and possibly be a mother. So when dating it's important to me that I sense that the man is happily willing to be a provider. I know that I'm not going to be a VP of a major corporation and I'm likely never going to bring in a substantial income. So a man that is looking for an equal financial partner is going to be severely disappointed and likely frustrated with me. With that said I sense that the man I've been dating for nearly three months is feeling like I should contribute to the bill when we go out. Lately he will pay and then ask me if I will provide the tip. ...And I have. However, I sense this is his way to tell me that he expects my financial input. It really worries me. Right now I do have my own money & I would happily spend all of it on him. I only don't because I want to feel certain that over the course of time when I don't have money and I'm potentially a mother he won't be resentful. How do I bring up this concern with him? I feel like winging it and hoping for the best could end up catastrophic.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous April 12, 7:35PM,
On the flip side, if you bring it up - that could also prove catastrophic as he may have a visceral reaction to being confronted about it.

At this point, if he's only requiring the tip, I'd suggest letting this remain as is and simply "observing" his actions and seeing if his behavior starts changing and he starts requiring more. If that ultimately ends up being the case, then at that point - rather than try to change someone. . .the onus actually would lie on you, being forced to make a decision about whether or not this is the RIGHT man for you. Because as we all know, changing others isn't really an option. Meaning, you can't control others, you can only control your reaction to them.

So if he starts to require more, you need to accept that most likely, you're never going to change him and that will always be a point of contention between the both of you. Instead, you'd have to decide if he's the right man for you or not - and if you feel that he's asking too much, then you'd have to decide whether or not to stay or go, rather than attempting to change someone you're probably not going to be able to change.

Anonymous said...

Thank you so much Mirror. I really value your time and your responses. That makes perfect sense. Thank you!

pisces woman said...

Hi Anonymous @ 7:35pm -this actually reminds me of a first date i went on where the man actually asked me to provide the tip.Actually he would of been more that happy splitting the bill which was only about $50 for the both of us after i told him i could pay half but he ended up paying for it but still asked me to pay the tip and I actually hadnt gone prepared meaning i was literally scrounging for change in my purse and it was the most embarassing moment ever because the waitress overheard me telling him that i was embarassed to leave only a $4 tip and he didnt even care! I asked him if he had any extra change and he said he might have a couple dollars in his car so i asked him to go and get it and he seemed annoyed by that. Meanwhile when he went to his car the waitress asked me if he was my date and i told her that yes he had asked me out but that was going to be the first and last date for sure and she more than understood ! after that he tried calling and texting me numerous times till finally i told him that his cheapness was such a turnoff that i would not ever be seeing him again! I have zero tolerance for cheap or stingy men and refuse to date them because i know what im seeking and its not a sugar daddy but at the very least a man who can provide for me and my future children(if i ever have any) and asking a woman to pay a measly tip-i mean c'mon!!to me that says alot about a man-its not about the money its the principle he wants you to be an equal with him. Personally I like to feel feminine in the presence of a man and taken care of. The minute a man mentions money to me- im out.Yes aint nobody got time for that! Steve Harvey said it best-a man's role is to protect, provide and profess (his love) to a woman. And yes times can be tough these days for a lot of people but believe me there are a lot of old fashioned men out there who are more than happy and willing to provide for their woman because it makes them feel more manly and makes them feel good. Its also a cultural thing for some men. In my culture men would actually be very insulted if a woman attempted to pay during an outing whether that was his sister, aunty, cousin or girlfriend. Anyways, even if i was making 6 figures i would still want a man who was able and willing to provide for me and i would take care of him like a woman should. Him asking you to provide the tip speaks volumes. Imagine living with him he'll probably be expecting you to pay half of everything. I know if i ever become a mother one day i want my life to be dedicated to my children. I will not be with a man who expects me to put my baby in a day home all day while i go to work and miss the most important years of my child's life. Everyone is different i suppose some women prefer going to work but i already know what i want and what im seeking in a partner and it sounds like you do too and this one isnt gonna cut it for you.Mirror is right you cant change people but you can change your situation at any time-its a choice. The guy im currently dating he pays for every date with no hesitation. He also makes substantially more than me but even if he didnt he still knows what it means to be a real man. I wanted to figure out how he would feel about his future wife/mother of his children staying home instead of working so i approached it the way Mirror had previously advised me and asked him if his mom stayed home or worked. He grew up in a traditional home where his dad worked and mom stayed home and it seemed to work well because they raised 3 very respectful, successful men. Then i told him i would wanna dedicate my life to my kids and he didnt seem to have any objections to that but i still need to approach that subject again to gain more of his perspective and see if we will be a good fit or not.Good luck with your situation.

pisces woman said...


Girlfriends and wives cook and clean and provide sex regularly - someone you're only casually dating should not be expected to do that for you. If he wants that, that's what maids and prostitutes are for. . .and he'd have to pay for them, too LOL.

LOL!! just read this omg this is why i keep coming back here!! hahaha tell it like it is Mirror!!! <3

Anonymous said...

Thank you for the detailed reply with your own experience in regards to my question Pisces. I appreciate you and that was very nice. I wish you all the best in life and love.

Kashroo said...

Dear Aphrodite.
Do you think guys can change from relation to relation? I know a guy whom never wanted to pay for anything, was never romantic or gave gifts ( despite being well off financially), his ex gf of 2 years reported similar attitude ( not spending, unromantic etc...).

However he is been seen a new girl for the past 2 month, and he says this new gf is ok with him, splitting bills, paying for dinner sometimes, ect...
( i know the girl, and she is the type that claims she will never spend a cent on boys).
Is he lying to me about the girl paying sometimes, and he is paying for everything now? Can he change from being so stingy to being so generous.
( by the way despite being well off he is so stingy he wont buy his own mun a proper birthday gift).

Also what kind off girlfriend 2 month into a new relationship is ok with splitting bills, paying for dinner sometimes, not receiving romantic gestures ( a rose or something)..

Im very confused and i highly doubt this girl will even stick around for long.

Thank you :)

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Kashroo,
"Is he lying to me about the girl paying sometimes, and he is paying for everything now?"

There's no real way to know, but it's a possibility.Because someone who's like this even with their own family is most likely the same with everyone else.

"Can he change from being so stingy to being so generous."

Everyone is capable of change - if they WANT to change, and actually do the WORK to change. But like I said previously, someone who's like this with their own family is most likely the same with everyone else. . .unless he's experienced and gone through some major change in his life recently.

Ennis Whalen said...

Gentlemen = Idiot?

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Ennis,
I guess that depends on who you're trying to impress, but that's not the way we women see it. The majority of us prefer masculinity (leader, initiator) over femininity (submissive) in men.

And it's not about the money. These days a woman can buy a dinner and a round of drinks for herself. She doesn't need to sit across the table from a man to gain those things. For us it's about the energy the man is giving off, which has great influence on bringing about romantic feelings in the woman towards him. Being kind, sweet, impressive, generous, a leader and a provider. . . turns women on.

If you want her to view you as a buddy or a friend, ask her to split the bill. If you want her to view you as a man and a potential lover, treat her like a lady.

Anonymous said...

Dear Aphrodite,
Hope you are well. Thanks as ever for your inspirational posts. I've been dating a guy for over a month now and he's so far been wonderful. We met each other randomly at a concert and were both instantly drawn to each other. He keeps in touch several times daily, arranges dates, is very courteous and gracious and acts like a proper gentleman. He also consistently pays for the dates and I feel he really enjoys treating and taking care of me. All of this is grand.

My concern is that I know he is really struggling for cash at the moment. He's decided to pursue a mid-life career change and as a result has gone back to university to get new qualifications. This has completely left in strapped for cash, and he has shared this with me just as part of general conversation. He's never even hinted that he'd like me to help pay, but I admit I feel guilty! I'm a professional woman with a fantastic job and am paid very well.

Like you illustrate in this article, I do love to be treated like a lady in my relationships. At the same time, I wonder if I should be offering to help or not? Do you have any suggestions on how to handle this? Should I discuss the issue with him? This gentleman has demonstrated great character and has qualities that I've rarely encountered in men that I've met over years of dating so I'm eager to deal with this issue in the best way possible.

Thank you!
M

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@M,
"I wonder if I should be offering to help or not? Should I discuss the issue with him?"

I wouldn't discuss this with him just yet. Because it's clear that being the provider is enjoyable for this man, as it is for all gentlemen. It makes them feel manly. It makes them feel successful. And it makes them happy to make a woman happy.

So there's "value" in that for gentlemen - they do reap benefits and enjoyment from that investment.

So you have to be careful because you don't want to make a proud man that's already suffering a bit of a blow from his financial situation - feel like less of a man, ya' know?

If he hasn't brought this subject up with you about paying for dates in particular - if he hasn't told you that he fears he may not be able to date you properly because of it - then I wouldn't bring it up. I'd let him bring this up.

Because if you bring this up out of nowhere, you know what the male ego will instantly think?

He'll think, "Oh no, she realizes I have no money and now she's not going to want to date me anymore." Additionally, he may think, "This is so embarrassing, she's offering to pay for me." And he may feel like less of a man.

So we don't want to emasculate him here by making this suggestion out of nowhere, ya' know?

If he's hinting around that he'd like to take you somewhere but he can't afford it, or if he's hinting around that he may not be able to date you properly with fancy dinners, etc. - what I would suggest, instead of offering to pay, is I'd suggest cheaper dates instead. That way, he still gets to fulfill his masculine needs, his pride gets to remain intact, and you are still being treated special.

For instance, if he wants to take you to see a movie, don't go at prime time. Go to a half price matinee instead. If he wants to take you to dinner but he can't afford it, you can suggest that you both just each order one drink and share a plate of hor dourves or an appetizer instead. If he has no real money to spend at all on anything like that, you can suggest taking a walk and maybe just having an ice cream cone while you're at it (about $4).

There are a LOT of things that can be done where you can both still have the same experience you're having now but spending less. And then once the relationship progresses and a commitment is in place (that he's asked for), dinners and evenings at home can also work into the activities from time to time as well.

During the dating phase, I strongly suggest that women play the feminine role while permitting men to take part in the masculine role. After all, this is what fulfills our needs as men and women and builds our confidence as such. I only suggest moving away from that slightly after a commitment is in place.

It's only been a month, so at this point I'd let this play out a bit more to see where it goes before suggesting that you can pay or split things. There's a momentum taking place here, the relationship is gliding on that momentum at the moment, and I would not potentially disrupt that at this time.

For now dear, place your guilt aside and accept the special treatment. There's plenty of time left to see where this is ultimately leading - so enjoy that for now and don't attempt to take control or "fix" things that aren't really fully broken just yet ;-)

Anonymous said...

Dear Aphrodite, Thanks for taking the time to give me this perfect advice, I'll follow it to the letter! Best wishes, M

Anonymous said...

I have been dating a man for 1 1/2 months and his birthday is next week. We have been out 7 times. He has been nothing but a gentleman, always staying in touch, paying for dates, buying me flowers, etc. and for my birthday several weeks ago, he took me out to a very nice dinner, bought me a card and a very nice bottle of wine. I would like to do something nice for his birthday to show that I appreciate him and all of the things he has been doing for me. Would a nice card and cooking dinner be too much at this point? I'm just not certain how to navigate the whole birthday thing in the early stages of dating.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous Jun 13, 11:41 AM,
"nothing but a gentleman, always staying in touch, paying for dates, buying me flowers, etc. . .Would a nice card and cooking dinner be too much at this point?"

Cooking his favorite meal and/or providing a thoughtful, personalized gift of some sort would be a nice way to say thanks and to show appreciation for all he's done :-)

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