"Mirror, mirror on the wall. . .where did he go? And why hasn't he called?"


















Why A Man Cheats: Reasons for Infidelity

Before beginning, I'd just like to say, women cheat too. Modern research shows that the numbers of women now doing so are quickly catching up to the numbers of men who cheat.

Having said that, we're going to explore some of the most common reasons men cheat. Why only men who cheat? It's simple. Because it's a fact that women explore this topic online more than men. Research showed the average number of folks searching "men cheat" online per month is approximately 201,000. While the average number of searches for "women cheat" is a much lower 74,000.

What's that tell you?

A couple of things. For one, the obvious answer would be because men cheat more. However, the flip side to that is also because many men simply just don't think their girlfriend or wife would cheat on them. The male ego just fights this type of thinking. Why? Because the implication is very primal - a cheating wife or girlfriend can bear another man's child. Even though the implications for a woman are much the same - a cheating husband or boyfriend can father another woman's child - for men, due to the male ego and their overall masculinity, this outcome is much more damaging. Therefore, the mere thought of it is literally sickening to them. Every man sees himself as "The Man" in his head. The only man.


A common claim is that men cheat for sex (although not true) and women cheat for love because they feel emotionally deprived. Which leads me to the second reason why men are much less likely to face the fact that a woman may be cheating on them. Because the implication has a very high likelihood of indicating that she's in love with another man. Whereas with men, sex and emotion are two different things. They compartmentalize them. However, with women, sex and emotion are one and the same. As a result, when a woman cheats on a man, it signals that she feels it's over. Whereas, when a man cheats on a woman, it signals that things are wrong, but doesn't necessarily signal an end to his feelings for his wife or girlfriend.

Lastly, women have the upper hand here. Men simply don't want to think that a woman will cheat on them. As a result, women take full advantage of the seed that's already planted and have a natural ability to hide their cheating activities much more successfully than men.

Interesting fact: Virtually all women who cheat never get caught versus one fifth of men who do.

Interesting fact: 95% of women who have cheated have never been caught.

Interesting fact: Women are better liars because they are more psychologically sophisticated.

And for those simple reasons alone, a woman cheating on a man is literally the kiss of death to a marriage or a relationship. While a man cheating on a woman has a higher likelihood of being forgiven or even overlooked.

Now that we have a better understanding of the dynamics involved, it's clear that many women cheat because they're seeking new love and a fresh start. However, the reasons that men cheat aren't as clear cut and precise.

Three Stages of Love


Eros Love (Romantic Love)

This is the stage of love often referred to as "in love." This is the stage when the human brain is actually producing a chemical effect that's akin to drug addiction. The chemicals produced are dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin (the 3 that produce the "high"), oxytocin and vasopressin (the two "bonding" chemicals), nerve growth factor (the "attachment"), testosterone and estrogen (the "hormones").

And here's an interesting tidbit, ladies. (And it's also the reason that "no contact" is incredibly valuable to women in particular.) Did you know that the events occurring in the brain when we are in love have similarities with mental illness? Did you know that the effects of serotonin on the brain have a similar chemical appearance to the mental illness known as obsessive-compulsive disorder? And did you know that the brain only produces these chemicals for an average of two years in both males and females?

Can anyone say "infatuation?"

Philos Love (Child Rearing/Friendship Love)

This is the "settling in" stage of love when romance tends to take a back seat and child rearing, family and friendship between the couple tends to take a front seat.

This is also the stage when cheating has the highest rate of occurrence. The brain is no longer producing the chemicals referenced above and the woman has had her attention diverted from the man - to her newborn children who have a much higher need for her love, attention and affection. If there are no children produced from the relationship, fractures can easily happen during this stage because there's no assistance with the chemical production produced during the romantic stage, referenced above.

Can anyone say, "in a rut?"

Agape (Unconditional/Companion Love)

Once a couple reaches this stage, they're generally out of the woods, so-to-speak. They love each other unconditionally, warts and all. They are getting ready to enjoy their golden years and are looking forward to growing old together, settling into retirement and welcoming grandchildren into their lives.

Can anyone say, "happily ever after?"

Now that we understand the different stages of love, let's get down to the dirty and explore some of the possible reasons why men cheat. (And for men reading this, some of these you can simply replace "he" with "she" as they apply to both genders.)

Why A Man Cheats


He's Insecure

If I've said it once, I've said it a hundred times - insecure men cheat. They just do; whether they love you or not has absolutely nothing to do with it. As a matter of fact, research suggests that most men who cheat claim they still love the woman in their life. And that's because insecurity is a "me" issue, not a "we" issue.

When someone secretly doesn't feel good about themselves, they seek out activities that remedy this. And nothing remedies ill feelings about yourself faster than the attentions and affections of a new lover. Additionally, folks who are insecure are generally equally selfish. As a result, they don't think about "others," they think about "self." Add to that the fact that they tend to focus on "rewards" versus "consequences."

It's a recipe for disaster.

And it's one of the main reason that I warn women dealing with insecure men to really think long and hard about what you're signing on for there. On top of what's referenced above, insecure men tend to enjoy tinkering with the heads and emotions of the woman in their life. They're not good communicators and, as a result, they won't sit down to talk. Instead, they'll pull pranks and play silly "push your button" games. Why? To get a reaction from you. Because if you didn't care, you wouldn't react. So when an insecure man wants reassured that his partner still cares, he won't ask her. Instead, he'll pull a prank that hurts her and then he'll sit back and watch her reaction. Insecure men/women will suck the life out of you and exhaust you - FAST.

Interesting fact: Only 12% of men feel the woman they cheated with was more attractive than their partner.



He's Opportunistic

Did you know that most men usually cheat with a woman they know? Don't get me wrong, you'll always have the types that troll the bar scene for one night stands and anonymous sex. But the majority of men who cheat do not go about it like that. The reality is, they work a situation around them, a woman around them, to their advantage. And then they strike once the iron is hot. This is where the "work wife" becomes dangerous territory. If there's a woman at your man's place of business that he confides in, shares with, lunches with and speaks about regularly - pay close attention to what's developing there.

Men like to make things easy on themselves, ladies. And to them, it's much easier to persuade a woman you know to be your lover than it is to walk into a bar, start from scratch, and attempt to lure the woman back to your apartment.

Interesting fact: 60% of cheating stems from the workplace.

Interesting fact: Only 6% of men claim to have had sex with a woman after meeting her that same day.

Interesting fact: 73% of men claim they got to know the other woman for more than a month before cheating took place.



He's Trying to "Fix" Things

I know. You just read that and said, "Huh?" Let me explain. Men can fix a car, a broken railing, a crack in the sidewalk. But when it comes to their relationships and their emotions, they can't easily fix themselves. As a result, many tend to hang on to what does work, what doesn't need fixed (which may be the wife or girlfriend) and simply resort to plugging the holes they feel inside themselves with extracurricular activities outside of the marriage - to make themselves feel whole again.

Men feel entitled to "have it all." As a result, many will attempt to do just that - take on a mistress to make the longing subside and then live happily ever after, having it all - with their wife AND their mistress.

What better way to feel fulfilled, content and "fixed" - without ever having to confront the real issues?

Interesting fact: 48% of men state emotional dissatisfaction as the cause of their cheating.



He's Hurt

Cheating that stems from revenge doesn't happen as often as it does for the reasons listed above, however, it does happen - but it's not necessarily for revenge. If a man has been deeply hurt by a woman in some way, say she's been snubbing him and nagging at him, making him feel like less of a man and giving him the impression that he simply can't make her happy - if he loves her, he may stay and then cheat to overcompensate for his feeling of "lack" as a man.

Revenge can be a factor here. But the real issue is more one of pain as opposed to getting even for being wronged in some way.

Interesting fact: 66% of men feel guilt during the affair.



He Objectifies Women and Craves Variety

Many men blame it on the genes, claiming that they just can't help themselves. And most times, the one's making that claim are also the men who have a tendency to be adrenaline junkies that objectify women as sexual objects or trophies of sorts and treat dating like a sport. For instance, if you're dating a man and you've heard him rating women on a scale of 1 to 10 - RUN.

He doesn't see you as a person, he sees you as an object. One that's been placed on this earth for him to do as he pleases with. And many times, men of this nature are either sociopathic or narcissistic - or both. These men love the thrill of the chase, the hunt and the conquer. It's their domination over others that's important. They could care less how they treat the other nor do they care about making an impression.

These are the caveman types and many an Alpha male objectifies women.

Interesting fact: When women were tested and forced to view themselves in videos as they felt men would view them (objectifying themselves), they made a greater number of mistakes on cognitive testing (attention, memory, understanding language, learning, reasoning, problem solving, and decision making).



He Gets Away With It

Nobody really knows the exact reasons for this, but it's a fact that many men simply have women in their lives that overlook their behavior and/or accept it. "Boys will be boys."

The most likely reasons would be that women tend to be more forgiving than men, women tend to make excuses for the men in their lives and women tend to fear being alone more than men.

Interesting fact: 15% to 20% of married men who were caught cheating are repeat offenders.



He Travels in a Pack

Ever hear the term, "Birds of a feather flock together?" It seems there's proof of that. When a woman dates a man, she should always pay close attention to the company he keeps. His close circle of friends. If he's a party boy who leans towards impulsive, careless behavior and suffers from restlessness, chances are he's running with a pack of men much like himself.

Often times, they're called "wing men."

These are men that travel in packs, helping one another meet and score with women. Another popular term that stems from this behavior is "taking one for the team." Meaning, he's out with his pack, one of his friends is about to score with a beautiful woman, but it's not going to happen unless his buddy occupies the woman's less attractive girlfriend. In which case, the buddy will "take one for the team" and sleep with the less attractive women just so that his friend can have a shot at scoring with the beautiful girl.

Interesting fact: 77% of men who cheat claim to have at least one close friend that also cheats.



He's Wealthy

Many men marry what has become affectionately coined, their "starter wife." This is the girl they most likely fell in love with at a young age and had a great friendship with. When they met, they were both kids in love without two pennies to rub together, yet still managed to always have a great time with one another.

The man starts to build his career over the course of many years and then one fine day - he arrives. He's gone from earning $17,000 a year at the local burger joint while attending college to suddenly landing that $300,000 a year job. And as we all know, perks come with money. And one of those perks for a man who suddenly finds himself wealthy is - young, beautiful women are suddenly paying attention to him. Women who, 10-20 years ago, wouldn't have given him the time of day.

Power and money are intoxicating and particularly appealing to the male ego. Which is why I warn the women that long for a successful corporate/business man as a husband or boyfriend to be very careful what you wish for.

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." ~ Lord Acton

Interesting fact: 32% of men with a $300,000 a year income claim to have cheated versus 21% of men making less than $35,000 a year.



It's a Learned Behavior

When a man is raised in a home with one or both parents engaging in affairs outside of the marriage, the likelihood of him leading the same lifestyle as an adult jumps considerably. The reason for this is because your parents are the two people in your life that teach you how men and women should interact with one another. If a young boy knows the father is cheating on the mother and he witnesses the mother overlooking this behavior, he says to himself, "I guess it's okay for men to do this. I guess it's their right and I guess women know this and accept it. I guess this is what a relationship between a man and a woman is."

As a result, they themselves develop the same lifestyle and have a much higher likelihood of recreating that atmosphere in their own relationships. Trust me on this one, ladies. My ex of 12 years, when caught cheating and I asked for a divorce as a result, actually said to me, "Why do you have to be such a bitch? You know, most women go through this, but they don't throw away their marriages over it."

My response? "You didn't marry "most" women. You married me. And when I stood at the alter and we exchanged our vows, I don't recall signing on for that."

If you want to know what life would be like with the man you're dating, look to his parent's relationship. In my case, my exes mother and father both cheated. His mother did it very early in the marriage as a knee jerk reaction to her husband's infidelity. She felt neglected and unloved. She chose to remain in the marriage and ceased the behavior - but his father still carries it on to this day, some 40+ years later - much like his paternal grandmother (his dad's mom) had done for the duration of her marriage. Dysfunctional family patterns tend to repeat themselves throughout history until someone breaks the cycle.

Interesting fact: 50% of men who cheated claimed to have fathers who also did so.

Interesting fact: 53% of men who cheated claim to have immediate family members who cheated.

Interesting fact: 21% of men who cheated had fathers that had multiple affairs.

Noticing a Theme Here?



In just about every single one of the scenarios above, notice that none of them were a direct reflection on the woman. Notice that just about every single one of them is a reflection on the man. Even in the scenario where a man might be hurt by the woman for one reason or another, it's still his CHOICE to conduct an affair rather than WORK out the issues.

“I'm going to take the high road because the low road is so crowded.” ~ Mia Farrow

Cheating is a choice, folks.

And when men decide to cheat, they make those choices based on what's going on inside of THEM - not based on what the woman is or isn't doing. Sure, they use the behavior of the woman as an excuse or justification for their behavior, but the simple fact of the matter is that most men use cheating as a means of coping. Coping with stress, anxiety, dissatisfaction, unhappiness, past traumas and childhood experiences and self esteem issues. Cheating occurrences for reasons of sex alone are actually very low.

Interesting fact: Only 8% of men who cheat claim sexual dissatisfaction as the reason.

Much like folks use alcohol, tobacco, drugs and gambling as coping mechanisms, many men also choose to use cheating much the same. "If I just do this, then I'll forget about all of that and this will go away."

But the reality appears to be that it boils down to choice and an inability to cope, emotionally, with issues of success, dissatisfaction, past experience, peer pressure, temptation, relationship problems and feelings of self worth.

Now this may sound sexist and I understand why. But realize that what I'm about to say isn't based on my past experiences, it's based on the insights contained in the statistics and the psychology behind what motivates men to cheat versus what motivates women to cheat. Which I believe reveals that when you have a man that's cheating, you appear to have a broken man. Whereas, when you have a woman that's cheating, you appear to have an unloved, neglected woman.

Would you agree or disagree?

Here's some old school wisdom on the topic from back in my day. The lyrics ring true:

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86 Comments:

Gemini 50 said...

"In just about every single one of the scenarios above, notice that none of them were a direct reflection on the woman. Notice that just about every single one of them is a reflection on the man."

Greetings all,
The best part of this article, for me, is, again, Ms. Mirror's encouragement for people not to blame themselves for other's actions.

To add my 2-cents, I have cheated twice on the same man who I had a 15-yr live-in relationship with (Sag). The cheating was not physical, rather emotional. At the time, I did not think I was cheating because there was no physical contact at all -- but I've come to realize that during this 15 yr relationship I turned to these men for my emotional needs because I was not getting them met at home.

When I would not cross the line into physical cheating (because physical cheating would have meant I could no longer lie to myself about my unhappiness and, in order to look at myself in the mirror, I would HAVE TO take action to get out of it -- which I wasn't prepared for)the first guy ended our friendship (Aquarius) by disappearing, and the second guy (Virgo) stayed friends (Yes, the same Virgo from recent disappearing posts).

Funny thing is the day after I ended the 15 yr relationship, and 10 YEARS after Aquarius disappeared, I received a card in the mail from Aquarius asking how I was (lol, I forgot about his disappearing/reappearing -- sorry, mixing subjects here).

I fit the article description of why I cheated, with one adendum. It was not because Sag no longer loved me, and I'm sure he believed he was not neglecting me. I turned to these two men because of Sag's refusal to address his issues that were negatively affecting our relationship. The problems, and his refusal to address them, made me FEEL unloved and neglected.


Gemini 50 said...

Oh, and p.s. I waited 9 months before I contacted Aquarius from his postcard and after the break-up with Sag. ;)

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Gemini50,
Thanks for coming here and sharing your story honestly for others to see. Sometimes we're not always proud of the things we've done in the past, but once we have a better understanding of them, we can avoid those situations in the future.

And I think at this point, you're wise enough to realize when a man isn't working on the relationship or putting enough into it - to see and accept that he's simply not worth it - and to walk away ;-)

Gemini 50 said...

@Ms Mirror,

Yep, not proud of it, but it's the truth. And recognizing it will hopefully ensure I never put myself in that position again.

I've been spending a lot of time this weekend reading thru your articles (for a 2nd/3rd time) and posts, seeing my angst in others' comments, and laughing with some as well.

As I go thru the emotional ups and downs of missing Scorpio (sometimes I feel so strong and healthy, and then all of a sudden a wave of grief will hit me and I feel like I haven't made any progress at all -- thus the reason I've been re-reading this wknd), I have begun to wonder: Regarding the strength that we find while we heal from rejection,(that amazing strength we tap into to claw and climb out of the dark pit of despair) where does it go when we can see the light, pull ourselves out of the hole, brush ourselves off, finally feel we are healthy again and back on solid ground?

I seem to be stronger when I am single, and I'm not talking about outwardly, but rather internally. My spirit is stronger, my outlook is brighter and my determination and hope for a happy future is amazing. I wonder why I can't keep that strength when I am in a relationship. I don't think I even realize I am losing it, or have lost it, until it's too late and gone.

Where does it go? Why do I give it up? And how do I identify when it starts leaving -- maybe that is where your "learning to say 'no'" comes in.

I'm still on the path... and I'm very thankful to you and everyone who share their stories... it is comforting to know I am not alone with these challenges. {Hugs to All}

Anonymous said...

"Whereas, when you have a woman that's cheating, you appear to have an unloved, neglected woman.
Would you agree or disagree?"

I would agree that many woman believe this and use it to justify their behavior for cheating.
I would also agree that many men believe that woman believe it. Its a very valid reason that men avoid lt relationships altogether.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous,
Thanks for sharing, that's an interesting insight. I'm not sure, however, that its a valid reason to avoid relationships altogether though...because if that's true, then men are certainly providing women even more validation not to enter into a relationship with statistics that show some 66% of men cheat versus 1/3 of women. The odds of a woman being cheated on by a man are much greater than the odds of a woman cheating on a man are, LOL ;-)

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@ Gemini50,
It appears that you feel stronger when single because when you're single, you're thinking with logic. And when you are dating, you're thinking with emotion (logic can sometimes get tossed out the window with women when emotions take control, LOL ;-)

Anonymous said...

Mirror, this post was very timely; thank you so much for gathering all the research/info on this topic. Coincidentally I've been researching the exact same thing recently, since I've been thinking more about Libra guy's actions.

This reminds me of a paper I wrote on online dating back when I was in school and one of the sites happened to be Ashley Madison - a casual encounters/affairs site.

I spent about 2 months on there chatting with men, asking them about their life, reading their profiles.

I ended up getting to know this charming Italian man on a deeper level, because well... I genuinely liked talking to him (I know I know, cheating scum) but I did find out about his views on relationships and marriage.

He was carrying around this ideal - one where he could enjoy the comfort of having a family, but also the romance, the fun, the craziness that comes along with being wildly into someone. He felt that living together with someone made it difficult to achieve this ideal.

So he plugged up that void by engaging in affairs, rather than trying to figure out a solution that would work within his marriage. Part of it was wanting sex with another woman (of course), but I think for him, he wanted to feel excited, alive, and appreciated as a man...which is all pure emotion. Those feelings can come from having sex with a new person, but it doesn't always have to.

He later expressed a lot of interest in getting together with me, but I told him I wasn't interested as long as he was still married. He said he was thinking of getting a divorce for a while, so I said, "Yeah okay whatever. Get one then we'll talk."

I thought he was joking as most married men like to talk up BS about getting a divorce but never do. Surprisingly, years later, he did get a divorce and reached out to me again as a single man. We talked a bit, but I had just met an awesome guy so I just poofed on him lol.

I think too much attention is given to men cheating due to sexual dissatisfaction, when really, emotional dissatisfaction is usually at the heart of it.

For example, I think Libra guy isn't cheating on his gf because of sexual dissatisfaction (well, I doubt it); he's emotionally dissatisfied.

My NC created a massive emotional void in him, one which he's scrambling to fill (and clearly, she's not doing a good job at it or he wouldn't continue to reach out to me).

I was like his emotional security blanket, which was ripped away from him. Now he has to deal with the consequence of not having me around, and the reality that he's with HER and only her.

He's a broken man now. Poor him...NOT. ;-P

- Vivian

Anonymous said...

@GEMINI 50..

Hi. So, what happened to Aquarius after 9 months after you replied to him? Did he respond at all? What happened to both of you?

My case was: I'm single and the guy I was involved with(emotionally, NOT phisicallY at AT THE MOMENT), was in a relationship as well. I met him before he me this new woman. So, we were phisicall before he met her. We kept in touch (he insisted on keeping in touch), and messsges etc, but when his relationship ended with around November 2012, HE decided to END our "friendship". No contact anymore with me forever. It's been 2 months since "our end".

Like you say in your stories, sometimes we feel so good and strong, and all the sudden, boom! Despair!

I was good until end of December, but latelly, it's been hard to accept his desapperance. We had this "friendship/ or whatever it was" for a little over 4 years.

I wonder if he will ever contact me again. We had no fight at our "end".

The problem is that his woman knew we had something in the past, so I'm somedoby she really hates :-( In fact, her finding pictures of myself, including whaat he claimed other women's from "past relationship" pictures as well on his computer, was the reason for the breakup.

I ALSO LEARNED MY LESSON. I WILL NEVER ALLOW MYSELF TO BE IN A SITUATION LIKE THAT AGAIN. I learned the hard way.

Jaylo

Anonymous said...

@Mirror

"I'm not sure, however, that its a valid reason to avoid relationships altogether"
Well, I guess "valid" in this case is = "risk vs. reward, is it worth it" as considered by a man.
You don't have to be very "worldly" to see what LT relationships are doing to many men. Whether the guy acts with honor/integrity makes little difference in the outcome.
So, say the woman feels unloved/neglected and decides to step out and have an affair. Everyone knows, she's justified in doing so. Its his fault.
So, know the dudes screwed. Unless he has verifiable proof of her infidelity which is unlikely (as you stated, most men don't have a clue) half of his stuff becomes hers. If there are kids, he looses them and gets to pay her a severance package (alimony) for cheating on him.

Any man who's watched a friend get blindsided and decimated in court also knows that the rule of law/judge also believes the man is at fault. As stated by you in quotes below:
"when you have a man that's cheating, you appear to have a broken man. Whereas, when you have a woman that's cheating, you appear to have an unloved, neglected woman."

So, are men avoiding relationships as woman want them because they're passive, insecure, lost, emotionally stunted boys (maybe) or is it because they're catching on and..... SMART. They're recognizing who the villain invariably is and, so, decide flings and no strings attached grants them much better "risk vs. reward, is it worth it" odds.

As for your stat:
"statistics that show some 66% of men cheat versus 1/3 of women"
I can find stats as well, like this one:
http://magazine.foxnews.com/love/cheating-statistics-do-men-cheat-more-women
Which states 70% of men admit to cheating and 50-60% of woman admit the same.
Or this one:
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/women-cheating-men-study/story?id=13885519
Which states that men/woman cheat at the same rate/%... LOL ;-)

Anyway, just some friendly thought provoking (hopefully) banter.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous,
Awesome response, thank you for providing one mans take on the issue. I think it's always helpful to receive the input of others, both male and female, so folks can learn to better understand one another...particularly men and women, LOL.

And it's no secret, women are certainly moving up the ranks as far as the rates and occurrences of cheating are concerned. It's fast becoming a level playing field, that's for sure.

The only thing I'd probably tend to disagree on is....I personally don't feel that because a woman feels unloved and neglected that this somehow justifies cheating. I believe, as I stated in the article, that cheating is a choice. You can chose to leave, chose to stay and work it out - or chose to cheat.

The motivations may be different for each gender, but it's still a choice that the cheater makes and therefore, they should still be held accountable for. Because the simple fact of the matter is....they could've also chosen to leave - but didn't.

Either way, great discussion - thanks for participating :-)

Gemini 50 said...

@ Ms. Mirror,
I absolutely agree -- absent psychological problems, we choose our behavior.

@ Anonymous 1/28 12:32 pm,
We all can give instances where a person has been screwed in a court of law as well as court of public opinion because of a relationship... nobody owns that one -- it goes both ways.

I thought it interesting that the losses you mention are material (except for the kids -- and in this day and age, if both parents are equally fit, equal parental time is now the norm.)

The losses women mention are emotional/ psychological.


Gemini 50 said...

@Jaylo

It’s hard when a relationship ends, no matter who ends it. I have sticky notes on my computer at work (in shorthand); one says, “NC,” another says, “Day by day, you will be ok,” and another says, “Be kind to yourself. You will get thru this.” I read these mantras to help me get thru the day. At home, I do the same with other positive notes. Try it, it might help.

As for my story with Aquarius, I met him in my late 30’s, during a trip 150 miles away. He was divorced, I was w/Sag. We became friends and mostly emailed weekly or talked once in a while by phone. We met once again for dinner and he told me he wanted more -- in fact, he didn’t just want more, he wanted ALL! I could not give it -- “cheating” to me was in the physical sense, I didn’t realize at the time that this friendship was emotional cheating. So after three months or so, Aquarius POOF disappeared.

Fast forward 9 yrs (I thought it was 10), but 9 yrs later. I finally ended it with Sag. I took the next day off from work, was sitting on my front steps in despair, saw the mailman at the box, and found Aquarius’ postcard. His message was generic w/email address.

I tucked it away.

Nine months later, I was finally feeling good after Sag break-up and emailed Aquarius. He was single, living 3 hrs away. After a month of chats, we met mid-way; he seemed like a good guy.

I now understand I DID NOT USE LOGIC, rather I used emotion, allowing him in my life. The first sign that I did not listen to was when I knew he really wasn’t right for me and I tried to put some space between us: he announced he was going in for cancer surgery. I felt so bad for him and wanted to be a supportive friend. (Can you say,”RED FLAG,” and, “STUPID WOMAN IGNORING RED FLAG!”)

SIDEBAR: There’s a line in The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo where the good guy goes back into the house with the bad guy… the bad guy gets the good guy in his evil dungeon and says to him something like, “You put yourself in danger for fear of offending me.” That was an AHA! moment for me. Some of us risk our “selves” because we don’t want to offend/hurt someone else.

Back to Aquarius: Well, it was preventive surgery for skin cancer. SHIX! I go in every six months to have pieces taken off of me and twice they have found areas that needed surgery before it hit the cancer wall - I don’t get all drama’d out that I’m going to die. He sucked me in.

So, now he’s coming up to my place every other wknd - he gets get-aways, I’m still home. He has x-wife drama, pays gobs of child support for 3 kids, even though 2 of them are grown, are not in school and don’t live with his x. One child talks to him when he wants money, the others want nothing to do with him (yes, yes, Ms. Mirror, I know!), and it breaks his heart and he cries (poor guy, I feel so bad for him).

It gets worse… his boss is a meanie, his coworkers are lazy and he does all the work. He gets part of his pay under the table, he gets money from his adoring parents to help him out (they really are wonderful; they are the parents we all should have had), and they’ve promised him their home in a very beautiful, prestigious part of the NE for inheritance.

Now consider, I’ve been on my own since I was 18. I started paying rent at 12 (25% of my babysitting money went to my mother), I left my x-husband at 22 with only my kids and their clothes. Everyone told me to go on welfare - Hell NO! I made my mistakes, and it was no one else’s responsibility to fix them. I worked a couple jobs and finally got into where I have been the past 27 years working my axx off and in a position at work I never thought I’d be: managing two depts., making a better salary - not rich, but financially ok.

So, I’m w/Aquarius who is a victim of his x-wife, his kids, his boss…OMG! HOW DID I GET INTO THIS -- AND HOW DO I GET OUT???

Gemini 50 said...

@ Jaylo continued...

At about a year in, I tell Aquarius he has to fix his financial situation if we are to have a future -- I am LOGICAL and protective of my financial life, but not able to protect my “self.” (DAMN! This is what I really want to fix w/me!)

After waiting and watching for another year, I see Aquarius is not taking any action to fix his finances. I talk to him again, and during his next visit, he tosses an envelope on the table that he said had $5,000 dollars in it. He says, “This is all about money, take it.”

In order for me to respect him as a MAN, he needed to stop being a victim, fix his problems, and take control of his life. But, I did not say that to him, rather I told him I did not want his money; I was concerned with OUR finances if we were to move forward together.

During this time, Virgo never stopped asking me to come out for a visit (we had been friends now for 7 yrs), and I finally decided to go. On the plane home, even though nothing happened physically between me and Virgo, I knew if I was willing to take that trip, I had to end it with Aquarius. My plan was to talk with Aquarius the next time he was up, but, sadly, it was on the phone because he kept pushing me.

A month later, he came to get his stuff. He told me HE KNEW I would end it once I realized he was not taking the actions we talked about and he was just holding on as long as he could. (OMG! I was struggling w/this breakup, and he’s just playing the game as long as he could make it run.)

He also told me that his original postcard was sent to many people from his past, and it was really a goodbye as he had planned to kill himself -- but MY EMAIL stopped him from going through w/it. (Umm, hello? I didn’t respond for nine months… (but I didn’t say that)).

He then proposed fwb with me. He said something like, “We’re really compatible sexually, and I don’t want to go thru the dating scene again so it can work out for both of us.” His dad’s health was getting worse and he would be passing through my area often; he would pay to stay at my house instead of a hotel. (Sorry, No)

Oh, and cancer was back for him too. This time it was a concern with something his dad was living with -- and it’s not good. He told me the date of his next dr appt - about a month away.

I called him the day after his dr appt, left a voicemail asking how everything went and never received a response. He blocked me on fb, but to this day is still fb friends with my adult daughter.

Last July (11 mos later), I received a box of pictures of us from him. No note included, and he used my home address as both the mailing and delivery address. I didn’t understand why he didn’t just throw them away himself. (Yes, I really am stupid about other people’s motives.) My friends told me it was his way of letting me know he was over me.

I thought it was a last ditch effort for attention - and to get me to contact him. But Ok, I can understand my friends’ explanations. So, cool. I truly hoped he was happy.

I tossed the pictures back in the box and put them in recycling.

-THE END-

But, really, it’s not the end. You can see through this story there is a lot of figuring out going on, and once we learn one thing, another thing comes along for us to learn. We are not only being “hammered” as Ms. Mirror has said, but, if we are open to self-discovery we are also growing into the spirit we are intended to be.

When the despair hits you Jaylo... be kind to yourself.

Anonymous said...

@GEMINI 50

In the second line of my post I mentioned relationship validity / risk vs reward / CONSIDERATIONS BY A MAN as the objective of the post.
I could have used CAPS in the original post as I did above but didn't want to make it look look like I was being disrespectful seeing as the post was a response to @MIRRORS response.
My intent was to disagree without disrespecting which is difficult in text.

I'am a male in my early thirty's. I have three sisters and know all to well the crap men are capable of.
But those are different stories for a different venue.

A large percentage of the men I consider "my group" see the situation as I presented it. All I offered was a "food for thought" perspective.

I mentioned money, kids, risk, divorce and sex (fling/no strings attached) because these are the things guys think about.
I didn't mention anything emotional/psychological because we avoid that sh*t like the plague... Until its forced on us, and if it is we're liable to kill ourselves. Men and emotions Do.Not.Compute. (Not quite that bad but you get the point)

See link:
http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/11/why-does-divorce-make-men-more-suicidal-than-women/

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous Male,
"I have three sisters and know all to well the crap men are capable of."

Very nice to see you're keeping it all in perspective.

"I mentioned money, kids, risk, divorce and sex (fling/no strings attached) because these are the things guys think about."

Now THIS is interesting. Not for the items listed, but for the fact that it's been written about many times over that men, at least modern day men, seem to benefit more from marriage than women do nowadays - YET MEN TEND TO FEEL THAT COMMITMENT AND MARRIAGE ARE NOT IN THEIR BEST INTEREST. And I'm not basing that fact highlighted in caps on what you've written here. It's simply a known fact that men generally do not feel marriage and commitment are what's best for them.

Funny, isn't it? Rather odd the fact that the very things men take into consideration surrounding marriage, particularly the most important to them - finances - are also the leading benefits they receive from marriage, LOL.

For instance, in this piece here:

http://www.menshealth.com/mhlists/benefits_of_marriage_and_commitment/index.php

It states:

"married men earn 22 percent more than their similarly experienced but single colleagues."

"Married men receive higher performance ratings and faster promotions than bachelors."

"British researchers reviewed the sexual habits of men in 38 countries and found that in every country, married men have more sex."

Men worry about their money, yet a woman and marriage seem to yield them more of it - and married men seem to climb the ladder of success faster than single men do.

Men are concerned with sex, yet married men tend to have more of it than single men.

And in this piece here:

http://www.studymode.com/essays/Men-Benefit-More-Marriage-Than-Women-147032.html

". . .a married man tends to take not only himself, but his wife and children’s benefits into prudential consideration, which makes him more motivated to do well in all aspects."

Children and a sense of "family" also seem to increase a man's overall odds of success (financial earnings).

I find it fascinating that the very things that are "top of mind" concerns to men. . .the things that they take into consideration and weigh "risk versus reward" with, particularly finances - are the very rewards they earn through marriage.

Fascinating.

And I don't mean that in a sarcastic way. I mean that I am truly fascinated by that, LOL. Fascinated that the very things men consider too risky to lose - are the very things that they gained (increased and benefit from) when married. Again, particularly finances.

So now, I'm confused, LOL.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Back when I started this blog, I intended it to be a forum for discussion about the mysteries of the universe.

And I never would've imagined that those "universal mysteries" - would end up being men, LOL!! ;-)

Any insights Anonymous Male?

Gemini 50 said...

@ Anonymous Male

Thank you for responding, I do appreciate it.

I’ll admit, you got my dander up by blaming a woman, her emotions and our (broken) court system for a man’s behavior.

I read the CNN piece on male divorce suicides. It states, “One sociologist who studies family structure and suicide rates says divorced men are almost 40 percent more likely to commit suicide than those who are still married.” And adds, “That number jumps to 50 percent for the man who is widowed.”

The article also states, “Yet for women there's a statistically insignificant difference when it comes to the risk for suicide among those who are married, divorced or widowed.” (no stats)

Although it does goes on to say, “Overall - men in this country are four times more likely than women to take their own lives,” that’s just too vague to claim, as that article does, “…that the stress and sadness associated with divorce take a much tougher toll on men than women.”

The article is not comparing divorced men to divorced women to see who suffers the worst of the sexes, rather it is comparing married men to divorced/widowed men and the same for women.

The article aside, divorce is horrible when two adults are fighting it out to hurt the other. No one wins. And if children are involved, they pay the highest price.

I appreciate your comment, “I didn't mention anything emotional/psychological because we avoid that sh*t like the plague... Until its forced on us, and if it is we're liable to kill ourselves. Men and emotions Do.Not.Compute.”

Since that is the case, how is a woman to communicate with a man effectively? What is considered ‘plague shix,” vs mature open discussions of our wants and needs?

Thank you again for your comments, they are interesting.

Anonymous said...

@MIRROR

O, wow... This is gunna be a tough one. Ahhh, ok.
So, first off, the following will be my views. Never really talked to anyone about this stuff so no choice there.
Something worth considering before I continue on may be my astrological influence. S-Taurus / M-Aquarius / A-Cancer / V-Gemini. Take it for what its worth.
I think marriage is great. I also think if kids are involved or planned for its absolutely necessary.
Check this out. A description of marriage that rings true (big gulp!). Fantastic read:
http://www.familytreecounseling.com/fullarticle.php?aID=494

"It's simply a known fact that men generally do not feel marriage and commitment are what's best for them."
Not so sure I've seen this play out in my life. I and those I know for the most part have taken pretty good beatings in committed relationships and yet for some reason still want, and eventually do end up back in them. So our gut is saying no, no more as we pursue another possibility for more... What drives that? Its more then sex. I would agree most guys up to their mid twenties'ish (depending on the guy) are definitely not thinking about marriage. In my opinion there's an internal shift in most guys at that point forcing them to re-consider commitment, marriage etc. The same shift happens, though more intensely at around 30 from what I've noticed/experienced.

The idea's that men gain financially and sexually is interesting. I grew up rurally, stay at home mom, decent sized family. I guess its a pride/ego thing for a man to be able to provide the opportunity for his wife to be a stay at home mom. I think if given the opportunity most guys would love to be able to provide this option. I really don't think men consider the financial opportunity apparently offered in marriage. That could be a rural, I'am a man I provide ego thing but I see many city couples looking to get out of the city. When they do the women seem to gravitate to small odd jobs a few days a week to get them out and about with their new focus becoming family. Its nice to see.
As for lovin,' I really don't know where to go with this one. What I've been told flies in the face and contradicts what you're stating... Come to think of it though, there is a possibility that married men, when satisfied don't say anything and conversely when unsatisfied say something. Of all the married couples my age'ish there are a lot less men complaining then not complaining when it comes to sex. WOW, it may be true then... Hmm

Anonymous said...

@MIRROR

Something worth considering re men not seeming to want LT relationships.
Consider this-
Most men in my opinion HAVE to feel financially secure or at least well on their way to being financially secure before they'll gain the necessary confidence (possibly interest) to pursue a woman and healthy relationship. Its something we have to do for ourselves. This was me. Women would hit on me. Women doing that just didn't seem right so I'd just bail and avoid them without really understanding why. I'am sure the avoidance made me look really passive, weak and insecure. Here's the weird thing. Usually I was attracted to the women that pursued me but because I wasn't feeling capable?? at the time I had to end what didn't start with a woman that valued me. "How the hell do you do I do this I thought?" I didn't want to confront her because I couldn't come up with an explanation for not wanting to be with her, after all I was attracted to her. I didn't want to lie and say I wasn't interested because I was. Couldn't be mean to get the point across. I did what I thought was the only solution at the time.
In my case with the money came the self confidence and the relationships I did want (mostly, LOL). Since then I've been working on myself to make sure that if ever my financial situation erodes the rest of my life doesn't follow suit.

I'am sure many of you have heard of those studies where men were asked what the most important aspect to marrying who they married was- timing was picked as number 1. The right woman doesn't mean anything without the man also making the right decision given the right circumstances. Lots of stuff in flux isn't there?

Given the global financial situation being a guy, especially one looking to establish himself, is not easy. Being a woman looking for a capable man would be equally uneasy.

Struggle is inherent in life.






Anonymous said...

@GEMINI 50

Before responding to @MIRRORS article I'd never responded or replied to anything, EVER. NEVER a word on a blog/forum or online for that matter.
The truthful absurdity of the statement (below) compelled me to share the floating thoughts of a group of men in my first few posts.
"Which I believe reveals that when you have a man that's cheating, you appear to have a broken man. Whereas, when you have a woman that's cheating, you appear to have an unloved, neglected woman."

The link was in response to your statement "The losses women mention are emotional/ psychological."
I wanted to prove that men are as likely to suffer from emotional and psychological repercussions as women. Women are generally more emotional then men (IMO) and as so are more likely to be able to deal with a life changing event with a lesser upset. For us ideally emotions float in our periphery with the occasional entanglement. Women cry/rage and the worst its hopefully done. Men think, WTH is this and how do I deal with or fix it.

"Since that is the case, how is a woman to communicate with a man effectively? What is considered ‘plague shix,” vs mature open discussions of our wants and needs?"
Guys are attracted to emotional women. That's why so many guys women consider "catches" are with women others may consider crazy, which seems to be synonymous with emotional. What we're attracted to and what we can handle are two different things though. We can handle lots of positive emotion but negative emotion, o boy. Its tough. When mom and my sisters would brake out into crazy mode dad and I would just go outside and work. This usually allowed us to avoid the burst. Repair mode ensued when we came back in but at least it was civil/workable by that time.
I think "just enough" emotion for women is about as much as many guys can sustain for any length of time. Its a compatibility thing though, right. If you nail him with burst after burst he'll be thinking,"holy crap, overload, maybe I can't handle her" so yea, do your best. Otherwise just talk, if he can't handle that... well...

Now that I'am older, when in the midst of mine or others emotions I think to myself:
-DO NOT make life changing choices because of emotions.
-Things are never as bad as they seem, nor ever as good as I want.
AND THIS IS ALL WRONG
I should be feeling the emotions rather then thinking them so that they'd move through me rather then accumulate. I know this, but trying to enact it is soooo damn hard! Can only do it when I'am totally broken. I've been told I'am stoic, in reality I just struggle with emotions. If they knew what was going on inside they wouldn't say I'am stoic. LOL

Anonymous said...

@GEMINI50...Hi there!

@MIRROR... your page is AWSOME. Loving this open discussiions!:-)

GEMINI50, thank you so much for sharing your story in details. It is great when we read those stories from other people and make us really SEE and LEARN what sometimes we do not SEE when we are the ones going through the situatons with all the emotions taking place and controlling our actions and decisions.

Like Mirror says:

"It appears that you feel stronger when single because when you're single, you're thinking with logic. And when you are dating, you're thinking with emotion (logic can sometimes get tossed out the window with women when emotions take control, LOL ;-)"

Reading all this, just helps me to have my guards up really good, since I have no much experience with relationships at all.

Aquarius sounds a very "trouble" one.

Back to my story. Thanks for your advises, and I really hope this man one day can come back around, and so I can have the pleasure of giving him that "Silent Treatment".

Let's keep strong ladies.

Jaylo!

Anonymous said...

Mirror, how do I change from Anonymous to "Jaylo"?

I see that GEMINI50 has her name here.

Let me know.

Have a great day!

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Jaylo,
Use the "name/url" function in the drop down menu under the "comment as" feature.

Use "name/url" and just enter a name and leave the "url" field empty. That way, you can comment under a chosen name instead of anonymous.

Gemini 50 said...

@Anonymous Male

I think you are getting in touch with your “feelings,” and it’s great to read. :)

I thought about your earlier posts this morning on the drive to work re: women being emotional and men not. As I dug and dug the trail, I finally came to, “we give birth.” Women HAVE to feel emotions. Think about it: Women are made to have another human grow inside them, and they begin to care (emotion) about that baby as soon as they know it is inside of them.

And consider this: When a man wonders why and HOW a woman can use emotion as a path to a better result, after the pain of childbirth, and believe me, it is often painful (emotion) to have a 8+lb and 20+” human come out of your body, WE FORGET ABOUT THE PAIN and often DO IT AGAIN and again because the love (emotion) we have for the child far outweighs the pain (emotion) we experience during labor. To us, the pain (emotion) is the path through and to the most amazing gift in our world: Life. And may I say, our love (emotion) is not only towards the child. I can’t tell you how attractive and sexy I think/feel (emotion) a man is when he is being kind to a child. (It'll stop me in my tracks.)

And the flip side of this, during my thought process today, is that men’s inability to understand our emotions is not your fault…you can’t understand because you can’t give birth.

Men will never understand our emotional make-up, just as women will never understand men’s inability to feel how we feel. And expecting one ought to feel the way the other does is just simply crazy.

That being said, thinking about your latest comment, I would like to say that emotion does not give anyone a license for abuse, verbal or otherwise, against another. If a woman or a man uses, “I was emotional, or angry, or whatever, that’s why I said or did what I did,” as a reason for poor behavior towards another, it isn’t one to be accepted.

We are all responsible for our choices and our behavior.

I hope you continue to post on Ms. Mirror’s blog; I’ve already learned a little bit about men from you – thanks for sharing.

p.s. I’ll tell you a secret about how powerful a woman’s emotions are. With BOTH of my children, RIGHT AFTER having sex, I felt (emotion) that I got pregnant. I don’t know how I knew, but, both times, the feeling (emotion) was there almost immediately. It’s still amazing for me when I think about it. And believe me, getting pregnant was NOT in my plan. (But don’t tell that last part to my wonderful, amazing and beautiful kids, who I would “kill” (emotion) for.)

Anonymous said...

@Gemini 50

The connection you made between emotions and child birth is really interesting. You're right though, something a guy really can't understand. Maybe its why guys find emotive women attractive. From an evolutionary stand point it would make sense that the stronger the mothers bond the better the chance of survival for the baby.

"We are all responsible for our choices and our behavior."
Agreed. Emotional intelligence.

Regarding your kids that you'd kill for. You may find this interesting, just thought of it. My girlfriend was walking about 30 yards ahead of me when she rounded a corner. I saw quick moving shadows and heard what sounded like a skirmish. I had the most intense emotional reaction I've ever had. It was quick. Then my mind went totally blank. The rage, it was indescribable! It ended up being a false alarm but that moment changed me. I realized I was one "situation" (wrong place wrong time) away from being in jail. That very realization seemed so wrong but my reaction felt so right/natural, no mater the outcome.
Women create life and men try to protect it I guess.






Anonymous said...

@Gemini 50

BTW,
About your secret. If ever you get that "feeling" and the situation wouldn't be complicated by telling the guy, tell him. He'd be proud as punch! LOL

Gemini 50 said...

@ Anonymous Male,

Thanks for your responses, good stuff. You sound like a real good guy. Tell us what your Zodiac sign is.

Your last mssg made me chuckle (not true, it made me laugh out loud! Thanks). Your advice will be good for the young'ns reading our mssgs. Those days are long gone for me. :) I had my kids very early, grew up as I raised them and got single again 5 years ago and having just a crazy time of it. Thus the reason I went searching for info and found Ms. Mirror's wonderful, comforting blog.

On the way to work this AM, I asked myself, "What can I ask Mr Male about (and to share with us emotional women?)" hmmmm....

Sexting.

Once I start getting involved with a man (I'm 50, the four men I have been involved w/over the past 5 yrs have been from 47 to 60), all of these guys quickly got into sexting. And being a Gemini, I like to play, so I played... (no pics) and no problems. But I wonder what a man really thinks about a woman who sexts with him.

What's your and your man-club thoughts on that? And please be honest. Thanks!

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous Male,
"Truthful absurdity"...LOL!!

That about wraps me up. I speak truthful absurdities. I love it! And you know why? Because that tells me I must be doing something right.

I made you think ;-)

And most times in life, truth is stranger than fiction. And I'm flattered that it compelled you to take action and leave a comment here and participate in this discussion

Anonymous said...

@ Gemini 50

Sun-Taurus / Moon- Aqua / Asc- Cancer / Venus- Gemini
Stellium in Virgo + North Node in my 2nd house- Leo
Stellium in Taurus in my 10th house- Cap

BTW,
About my post where I talked about guys and money. As you can see above it would make sense that finances, business and the economy are, me. They've become my job and I love it. The reason I posted what I posted is that what I noticed in myself, to varying degrees, I noticed in my buds (though always with less prominence). Usually it would manifest as them not wanting to take the next step in there current relationship, flat out crappy confidence, something like that. Unlike my situation where I second guessed and was unsure about, well, everything until I forced myself into a self discovery search of sorts. In this time I still had relationships but I sucked, probably took on much bad karma in that period.
Also,
For everyone, please don't taking anything I say as fact. Try the ideas on, spin around and see what you think (you ladies should like that!). Don't want some poor dudes girl to kick him to the curb because of a little confusion on his part or something...
Not really sure on how karma works but I can't prove it doesn't exist, so, until that can be done I really want to avoid the bad stuff.
Ahhh, that feels better.

Sexting
Haha, welllll. Come to think of it I've never talked to a guy about sexting. I think that could be really awkward... for my age group anyway. I wouldn't know how to bring it up. I can suggest the no pictures thing was a great idea, especially for the young'uns. That type of thing WILL be shared by (especially) younger guys if/when things go sour if not before. Definitely blackmail and leverage material that no one needs, right?? The guy sending a pic like that of himself shouldn't encourage a 'like' reaction. We're guys, neither we nor the world will care about our junk going viral right!? Maybe a day of notoriety or embarrassment but, whatev... Different for women. Also, how would you explain this to your son/daughter years later if they found the pics online.
As for me, I'am not at all into it. Words in person- great. I don't know I guess it makes me think I'am getting a pic because she's on lock down or something. I want her body, not a pic of it. What am I supposed to do with a pic, get frustrated? Also, I'am into the demure types that are usually trying to set me on ice, not warm me up.

Anonymous said...

Stellium in Taurus in my 10th house- ***ARIES***

Not Cap

Anonymous said...

@MIRROR

True, you did make me think but that's easy.
Whats hard is p*ssing me off... congrats. LOL

Without that I wouldn't have responded.

Since posting I've learned a few things about myself. Writing helps solidify thoughts. Also, my grammar and spelling suck. The worst is re-reading stuff I wrote a day later. I quit re-reading the stuff I write for that reason. I 'publish' thinking, "not a mistake" then the next day I slap my forehead thinking WTH!!!

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous Male,
"Whats hard is p*ssing me off... congrats. LOL"

Not the first time I've pissed a guy off and I'm quite sure it won't be the last ;-)

No worries on the spelling. We're all commenting from a variety of mobile devices, text, tablets, cells, etc. And when it comes to those mediums, it's a bit more difficult.

We're not here to judge :-) We're here to converse and understand one another and ourselves better. And I believe every woman reading this can understand your message, even with an error or two, so no worries.

I've made quite a few blunders along the way myself LOL.

And it's refreshing to hear a young man also state that women sending images of themselves, sexting them to men - is not a good idea. Many men attempt to get women to participate in that and the women, wanting so very bad to please them, simply comply without thinking of the repercussions.

Which, among others, is also the simple fact that the man loses respect for a woman who does that. I mean, yea sure, he'll participate, he'll date her for a while and he'll even sleep with her.

But somewhere deep down inside, men simply don't respect that.

I just saw this on an episode of Judge Mathis on television. A girl permitted a "friends with benefits" situation with the man and he began to ask her to sleep with his friends also, participate in threesomes, sent her photos around to others, etc.

And the girl? Yea, she developed feelings for him.

She told the judge she didn't understand why he had done that to her and treated her that way and the judge said:

"When a woman agrees to participate in that type of behavior - a friends with benefits situation and sexting images . . . the man wants to SHARE those BENEFITS - with other men."

So very true.

Gemini 50 said...

@ Anonymous Male

“Come to think of it I've never talked to a guy about sexting. I think that could be really awkward... for my age group anyway. I wouldn't know how to bring it up.”

This cracked me up. The absurdity cracked me up. The absurdity of my asking the question cracked me up.

In the comment above, you gave a clear example of the differences between men and women.

I honestly thought my question was legitimate and the behavior common-place because women talk with each other all the time (nurture).

It never crossed my mind that when I asked to get the input from your man-club, it was ridiculous – like asking someone to walk on air – it’s just not going to happen without a lot of science or magic.

Your explanation was perfect reinforcement for women to understand: men and women talk different languages, and live via different behaviors.

Perfect.

AfterAmerica2011 said...

Women cheat as much as men do. My wife and I have both had affairs but instead of hiding it, we kept it more in the open and as a result after 27 1/2 years of marriage we still love each other and still together. All relationships go in phases. A recent survey about infidelity stated that even in "perfect" "happy marriages" that women and men still cheated and/or had an affair 35% of the time.

Peter said...

@MOA and the ladies heres one to discuss which happened very recently.

A couple of days ago a former trainer at the gym I do work at had his wife leave him. The reason was financial and the implications of the financial situation on her view of him. Not only that but in her feeling about herself. He lost his business and was unemployed. He went from hero to zero and bust. She tried to support him but in the end he as the man wasn't providing in the traditional way. So she began to feel devalued as a women. As she explained it she asked why is this man not putting up a fight to work and provide.In the back ground theres a guy at work who did make her feel valued and provided for. He did put up a fight and pursue. So she cheated because she felt valued and loved. 16 year marriage gone because a guy sat on his ass sponging off his wife. That's weak to me he should have been providing he just didn't step up. He could have worked in the gym again but no he wouldn't do that. As much as I respect a women who earns and is successful then that's her money. A man should provide house, bills all the living costs because he's the man. I guess I'm just old fashioned. He should not sit on his ass letting her provide its not natural.

What are your thoguths ladies?

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Peter,
I understand the woman's feelings. I'm not saying that cheating was the answer, however, I understand what happened in her eyes. Because I've been in a similar situation and honestly, as for me personally, I find it very hard to respect a man that isn't respecting himself. And I, too, feel that a man should do what he has to do to make ends meet. If he trying, that's a different story. But if he's happy to sit and do nothing, then no - I can't respect that.

And I imagine what happened here is that this woman simply lost respect for her man due to his lack of ambition with regards to his current situation. It's a shame, really.

Alana said...

I completely agree with MOA on this one. I think a man needs respect (more than love) first and foremost from a woman. In turn, a woman needs to feel that she can respect her man to feel safe in the relationship - if not, it doesn't matter how much he loves her.

Funny this topic came up - I read an old article on this the other day and couldn't believe how insightful it was:

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/255977/what-do-women-want-dennis-prager

- Alana

Anonymous said...

An alternative view on Peter's original post.

An ecstatic husband and wife decide to start a family. Wife-y becomes pregnant but along the way looses the child. The wife, dealing with her newly despondent husband as well as her own loss related issues falls into depression.

In the story and my example both people fall from grace so to speak. Is depression normal and somewhat expected in both instances? Yes!
Story- The guy went from hero to zero in his employees and more importantly, in his wife's eyes. If he has kids the thought of there stability and security will weigh on him as well. What else matters to a man? He failed his own standards.
In the example- Wife feels stricken by god. Not only has she lost the outcome of their love and the possibilities that existed before the loss but a sense of failure as a woman.

A man has no idea what its like to be a woman and vise versa. Pain cannot be compared and if it could would it really matter? Are the less affected partners free to act as the woman in Peter's original post and if so who really is the weaker partner? It could be easily argued that the weaker person is the one who abandoned their partner in need.

In reality the failure isn't in what happened to either devastated person (that's life) at this point but IS absolutely tied to how the PARTNER CHOOSES TO REACT.
No one lives on the high road their entire life. The challenge with partnering for both genders is finding someone who cares, recognizes and reacts appropriately and with love when their significant other is digging to find bottom.
To work at growing and deepening their love or abandon it and start from scratch with someone else only to later encounter a similar situation with similar choices. So, what changes now? The situation again, or this time you?

Also, without highs AND lows, how can depth be created in a relationship?

I can read between the lines and guess in the original post that the marriage was uncommunicative and stale before his career went to crap. That happened around the same time 'another' started paying attention to her.
Marriage doesn't stop 'other' attractions from occurring. The conscious decision to act is just that though...

An option could have been to concoct a plan at some point after his career loss that goes something like this:
She comes home in a sparkling mood with flowers, "from a REALLY NICE GUY at work." Note reads, "Your not so secret admirer!!"
FYI, Pretty tough for a man to fault a woman that's open, communication and not hiding anything.

Even if it turns out she ordered the flowers for herself. Why should he know? Have to keep his focus on what he has and not what he's lost, which is usually what happens.

It may or may not take a few days but this will likely snap him out of his funk. Fear of more loss will be especially powerful now.
Warning, consider a contingency plan... he may just show up at her work the next day in his under wear to kick the other dudes ass.
I only offered a way to get him moving...

One caveat, nothing above accounts for flat out incompatibility between two people.


"@MOA and the ladies"
anonymous she-male it is then, LOL!

Gemini 50 said...

I agree with Peter and Ms. Mirror as well, and as an example: A yr after dating Sag, he became employed in same company as I had been for 7 yrs. Not in same location, but same company, doing different things. I can't tell you how much self-examination I had to go thru to accept his choice when, as I was busting my axx to get ahead to make more money to better our life, he decided he had no ambition to change what he was doing (although there was plenty of opportunity for him to do so).

We both had our own choices, and I had to work to accept his. But when he took to saying often, "When you move up, you can take me too," I felt I was plowing the road ahead to keep it easy for him.

The same goes for Virgo. We work for the same company, but 1K miles apart. He has said to me, "Find me a better job..." or something of the sorts. I don't know if these guys understand what that does, but it certainly affects my feelings (there I go again Anonymouse male -- feelings) and confidence that they can provide for me... and not necessarily in the financial sense. They become a 'dependant' as opposed to a 'hero.'

Damn! Peter, Do those guys you speak of exist? I can't imagine how it feels like to have (my own money ?!?!?!?!?!) a man pay the bills... that is a freaken' wild and crazy make believe story! lol

Peter said...

@Gemini50, MOA and ladies here

Let me outline my own thinking on a personal level as a man on the example I provided.

On a personal level I get no satisfaction at all as man letting any women provide or pay for me. The same can be said of building a home no women should provide for that. Fair enough there are birthdays, treats and things she wants to do with HER MONEY but we're talking a different thing here.

I get a lot of satisfaction as a man providing for a woman myself and building a home for her rather than the other way around. Any costs of upkeep of that home are my concern not hers. As I explained to MOA my area is work there in that environment I'm the boss. I every kick or ego boost as a man that I need from the activities that contains. It’s a masculine environment so it provides me an area to confine that so it has place. The home however is the environment for her to be boss and for us to enjoy in private. Outside of work is OUR environment to be with each other together. On that front if she is happy so am I(I don’t mean being a push over, putting her on a pedestal or not taking the lead). It gives me the balance and I enjoy the feeling of coming home to that environment. I much prefer to let a lady a lady have her say in that area as I know most women are proud of the homes they build. Certainly the last long term relationship I was in was with woman who was very proud of the home we owned. I have to say it was lovely environment and gave me balance over the more masculine pursuits I enjoy outside of it. On that front I provide for her it’s the way I want it to be. Her money is her money.

Having said that I don't have her cook, clean or iron any of that I'm a big boy thank you I can do it myself ;-) lol. I have her with me for who she is as a women and a person. Plus NOBODY cooks in my kitchen except for me HAHA.

I think based on the example provided and my experience you need to show her and make her feel like she is the ONE woman for you. More importantly that you love her and value her.. By that I mean actions and not words really make her feel it. So she KNOWS it in herself. I think one of the ways you do that is by stepping up and providing.

No women will ever pay for me in anyway. I have to say as a man I do get a big kick out of providing and spending ON HER and things we can both do within the relationship. All of this SHOULD make a man feel like a man.

I think it links a lot to cheating. In the example provided about my former colleague let me make this clear. The guy REFUSED a new job when offered. He sat at home and lived on his wife because he had no desire to work for her or himself. It’s THAT not the natural ups and downs of a relationship that I don't like. I think its key to the example provided. Yes problems give relationships depth and strength in some cases. There are two of there you do it TOGETHER. For me as man it comes to this....would any of you really want to be with a man that refused to fight for YOU? as is the case here. I have no sympathy for what he was feeling at all. He had a WIFE to step up for. She married him, gave him 16 years of her life and most importantly gives him love. When a woman gives you that in my view as man you look after it she is giving you part of herself. You fight for it and keep it. He let the women who loved him down. Cheating may not be right but leaving him is. To me what he did was weak. I can see why she did it because this man in his actions shown that everything they had was worth nothing. Worse that her feelings for him and her as women to him are worth nothing.

In this example don't give me excuses for him I don't care about his feelings it’s his fault enough said. I can’t support him from any perspective. Sorry for going on I hope explained myself well enough HAHA for me this links into the cheating example I provided.

Gemini 50 said...

@ Peter, I commend you, but what you explain is foreign to me.

I would like to ask the women visiting this site: how many have been in a relationship where the man pays for everything when they go out on a date and/or pays the home bills if living together, as Peter describes
.
And for the men visiting this site:
- Do you always pay when you go out on a date?
- Do you also pay the home bills when living together?
- What do you think of a woman who never contributes towards dating expenses and
- does not contribute towards home expenses when she has a job and the two of you are living together?

I’m trying to figure out how a woman lets a man “be the man” and take care of everything when she has been self-sufficient her entire life. I am also trying to figure out if it should be expected for a man to take care of/pay for everything (Peter could be in a financial position to do this, but others may not. AND Peter could be a rare breed). ;)

I have never felt 100% comfortable allowing a man to pay for me. I’ve experienced it when first dating men, and I’ve liked it even though it has felt uncomfortable. But it never lasts, and I wonder if the short life of this chivalry is due to my willingness to contribute (too quickly) or if it is because I let the guys get too comfortable so they get lazy.

@ Ms Mirror: I think my financial behaviors are sending the wrong messages and attracting the wrong guys.

When I first went out with Scorpio, he paid for dinner/drinks, and then later we went clubbing and I paid for several of our drinks. An interesting event I am remembering now: When I brought our drinks over he looked me square in the eyes and said, “Just don’t forget who the man is in this relationship.” This took me aback, I was speechless. And a couple dates later, I asked him about it. I explained how refreshing it was, but wondered if it was something that I did to make him say that. He said, “It was the way I was raised. I am the man. I like to be the man, and I want to be a good man.” OMG! I was so impressed!

Then, a week or so after, we were out tooting around town looking for something I needed for a piece of furniture. I suggested we stop somewhere for lunch and he said he didn’t have any cash on him (?red flag?). I told him “no problem,” because I did. During lunch, we got to talking about things we were doing for the first time with each other and Scorpio said that letting me pay for lunch was a first for him. (?bs or honest? I don’t know, but DAMN! All of these memories bring back the feeling of regret that I really f’d it up when I asked if we could just be friends in April, and verbally standing up for myself with him in November (via text). Although I was always honest with Scorpio, and apologized sincerely to him when we started seeing each other again in July, he never was the same man I had started to know. And I don’t know if it was because I hurt him and he was protecting himself, or he just didn’t give a shix anymore and he showed me the man he always was. I don’t think I’ll ever know the answer to that… Scorpio was much of what I read in Sextrology. And the more I think, the more questions I keep asking myself about him. Oh well…)

Continued

Gemini 50 said...

Continued @ Peter and Ms. Mirror (and Kay @ the end)

When Virgo was up visiting me, I paid for everything while he was here (twice). When I went to visit him, our outings included staying w/friends/family and I noticed that he did not easily take out his wallet. When I went grocery shopping by myself for a dinner I was cooking for us at his house, I paid for everything (and I didn’t mind doing so). When we went shopping together while visiting him, I decided to test him. It KILLED me not to offer to pay… and I felt terribly guilty for adding anything to the grocery cart. But he paid the bill.

With Aquarius, we didn’t go out much because he loved to cook and hang out at my house. When I/we went to the store to buy food, I always paid the grocery bill.

When Sag and I lived together, we had a home account where we each contributed equally, but I paid for all the food (I felt I needed to do more financially because my children were benefitting from his financial contribution). When we went out, he never carried cash, so I often paid for things requiring cash. If a debit/credit card was accepted, it was no problem, he’d pay. Also, I was the one to manually pay all the home bills from our dual account. As much as I asked Sag to get involved and see what the bills were, his answer was, “I don’t need to, I trust you.” When I tried to explain that I felt the burden was all on me, I was ignored.

During my marriage, my x was so irresponsible I HAD to pay the bills (from what was left after he was done with his paychecks) or they wouldn’t get paid. And when I started working a year after my 2nd child was born, my paychecks went to the bills, his paychecks went to his toys.

So how does a woman change this behavior of totally taking care of herself? I don’t think finding and being with a man who takes care of the woman he loves as in the examples Peter gives is as easy as keeping my money in my wallet. When I start dating a guy, he sees my home, my vehicle (not extravagant, but not a junk) and learns where I work. The assumption is easily made that I am ok financially. (I don’t tell anyone new that I meet what I actually do for work, all I say is that I work in administration which seems to lead them to think secretarial, and that’s ok with me.) Even my friends have brought up the subject of salaries, and all I say is I am thankful I make enough to pay my bills. I don’t smoke cigarettes or throw money away @ the casino. I am not into “things,” my house is simple and not full of furniture, but it’s comfortable.

How does a woman let a man “be a good man,” without feeling like she is using or taking advantage of him -- or that she owes him (after a date?) And how do you identify a man who won’t be “a good man financially,” as Peter describes, considering initially, aren’t both people testing and protecting? UGH! This is so freaken’ HARD!!! No wonder in your, “Finding a good man” piece, you talk about the work that’s involved. I’m starting to think that I’ve been the lazy one!!

@Kay, thanks for sharing your NC activity with the guy who’s been contacting you. I appreciate it.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Gemini50,
"I have never felt 100% comfortable allowing a man to pay for me."

You should get comfortable with that. Because if you're not, then THIS happens:

"I wonder if the short life of this chivalry is due to my willingness to contribute (too quickly) or if it is because I let the guys get too comfortable so they get lazy."

Yep. You got it. You answered your own question there.

"I think my financial behaviors are sending the wrong messages and attracting the wrong guys."

Absolutely. When a woman plays the man's role, the man stops being a man. Additionally, that behavior will attract lazy men seeking a willing victim.

“Just don’t forget who the man is in this relationship.”

Exactly. Many of the gentlemen (not the idiots) that I've dated made it extremely clear up front - THEY are the man. And it was my job as the woman, to let them be the man they are.

“It was the way I was raised. I am the man. I like to be the man, and I want to be a good man.”

True GENTLEMEN feel like that. Men that are okay with the woman paying - are to be steered clear of.

"I paid for everything while he was here (twice)."

Never, EVER give the impression to a man that you're a willing victim. Do that and you'll attract freeloaders and lazy men by the dozens.

"my paychecks went to the bills, his paychecks went to his toys."

I hate to say this Gem girl . . but you're setting things up this way :-(

"So how does a woman change this behavior of totally taking care of herself?"

You don't. You continue to take care of YOURSELF - but when you're with a man, you let him TREAT you - like a woman.

"I don’t think finding and being with a man who takes care of the woman he loves as in the examples Peter gives is as easy as keeping my money in my wallet."

Yes, it is. Because the one's that don't reach for their wallet - don't get a second date. It becomes a natural "filter" for you as the woman. No chivalry, no special treatment as a woman - NO SECOND DATE. Period.

Cont . . .

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

"The assumption is easily made that I am ok financially."

This doesn't matter at all. I'm okay financially, too. I have a home, I have a second home as a summer home, I have a car and I take care of myself. But when I'm on a date with a man - I'm a lady, too - and I let them treat me like one.

"How does a woman let a man “be a good man,” without feeling like she is using or taking advantage of him -- or that she owes him (after a date?)"

I hardly think that a guy picking up a dinner tab is being taken advantage of. Nor does it dictate that anything is owed. Back in the days of courting - the man showed the woman a good time in exchange for HER time spent with him. If he wanted her company, he offered to take her places (to impress her and to also show he was a man that could provide for her).

The only thing owed on a date is your time - and a thank you for the great evening he showed you.

"And how do you identify a man who won’t be “a good man financially,” as Peter describes, considering initially, aren’t both people testing and protecting?"

No. Any man that isn't reaching for his wallet and willing to pay for the date is NOT a good man - i.e. GENTLEMAN. He gets no second date. The one's that don't reach for their wallet are spongers. Trust me, I learned that one that hard way.

"I’m starting to think that I’ve been the lazy one!!"

No sweetie . . you're not being the lazy one, you're attempting to be the man - the one doing all the work ;-)

Relax and let a man treat you - and enjoy being a woman. True gentlemen will have it no other way, believe me. It's their ability to provide and treat you like a woman and impress you - THAT MAKES THEM FEEL LIKE A MAN.

Let them be men ;-)

And for those who will chime in and disagree, realize we're not talking diamonds and furs here. No one is telling anyone here to take advantage of the other.

All I'm saying is:

1) Real men, gentlemen - like to be EXACTLY that. The man. And providing for the woman and impressing her with a good time makes them feel proud of themselves and like a man.

2) Women need to expect to be treated like the lady that they are by a good man that wants to do that for them and that appreciates them.

It's the JOY in dating - for men and woman both.

I only pay for a date - if the guy is a jerk and I can't wait to get the hell away from him. In those cases, I grab the check and run. And the only reason I do this is so that I DON'T take advantage of the man - knowing I have no intentions of ever seeing him again. So I don't want him to later claim that all I wanted was some dumb damn dinner. Because the truth is, all I wanted was to get the hell away from him - and I'll buy his friggin dinner if it means I can get outta' there quicker, LOL.

But when I'm with a gentlemen - I'm a lady, and my man enjoys treating me as such - and I get to truly enjoy being a lady with a great man :-)

AnonWoman said...

My ex got a massive thrill in paying for everything. The first date when he bought a $300 meal, we then we to a bar, and he went to the restroom and said to order our drinks whilst he was gone, i was just about to pay for the two drinks and he was coming back and he literally saw me and started running around the corner of the the bar as fast as he could to stop the £20 note in my hand being passed to the barman. He lurched forward and pulled the note out of my hand just before it was about to hit the bar tenders hand. And he got his wallet out and paid. No you won't pay, he exclaimed. I was only paying as he wasn't there.....

Few months in, when I paid for a few dates 1) - a graduation drinks of mine for a group including him 2) a Round of drinks in a posh members club --- he didn't enjoy those nights.....and that was the start of our downfall even around that time.

Because some of the dates we would meet for coffee, have cocktails, then dinner, then theatre....with a taxi in between....what I'd do is, just pay for something very small like the coffee and bring it over to him as he rested. He liked that. He organised everything else in advance and paid for it....mine was a very small gesture.

He really would always pick up the dinner tab immediately and never, ever, ever, actually I lie, once out of 50 meals, I paid cos I'd just got a new job that week and I wanted to pay for him for once....although that was a shit evening really and he had been planning on ending it with me that night too he later told me. The mother fu*ker.

I loved that he paid for everything and so did he!

I hope my next relationship is exactly the same.

The times when I've paid, to show I don't fancy a guy I've dated a few times, that's when it goes downhill. That's a bad move too because sometimes after a few weeks I change my mind but the guy then took it the way that I wasn't interested in him, cos I picked up the last tab.

Yeah, men take it that you're not interested if you pick up a tab, for sure. REAL men anyway.

Why take a man's pleasure away from them by us paying - nah. They love it really.

@AnonWoman

AnonWoman said...

PS.

Although I was lucky with the ex, I've had men that want me to also buy the drinks on the first or few dates.....THAT makes me feel like sh*t and I think, no way and never see them again. Tight wads. Does not make me feel like a woman/feminine.

Even if the guy I liked was poor, and could only afford two slices of pizza and two cans of coke. I wouldn't mind. I wouldn't take his pleasure away by offering to pay, or saying, oh I've got money and a job, let's go for a nice meal and I will pay.

As that would insult him as a man.

I've paid for guy's dinners before, most of the time they just treated me like shit afterwards or disappeared soon after. So I've learnt and don't bother anymore. I much prefer this new way for me. Makes me feel great. (New way as in I've been letting a man pay for about 10 years now - most of the times)

Gemini 50 said...

@ Ms. Mirror,
You are one funny shix! Thanks. You are right.

I know I have other things from my childhood contributing to these uncomfortable feelings and behavior, and I'll keep trying to reteach myself better behaviors. I am so thankful to have your and this community's input to discuss and learn from.

Hugs to all!

Peter said...

@Gemini50, MOA and the ladies

I think in some cases maybe I'm not a good example to be used of how men act presently, I'm too old fashioned maybe? who knows LOL

MOA has it right in everything she says there. For me it is ALL about "Courting" over time. Its simple really a man takes the lead to win your love/affection over time. This shows a number of things:

1- He KNOWS what he wants and thats YOU
2-He is confident because he takes the lead and puts himself out there for YOU
3-He can and will provide for YOU
4-This is big one for me....he risks looking liek an idiot to impress YOU because I can tell you its not nice when this backfires

However anyone can throw money around but its the thought that goes into it that counts. A man should listen and remember what she likes and dislikes. Then take the lead plam accordingly with a lot of thought.Its the difference between a guy saying "what to do you want to do tonight?" compared to "I'll pick you up at 8 and I'm taking you out"(he should never say where your going because that ruins it he may give you a heads up if theres a little dress code or something). He then takes you on a date he planned based on knowing what you like he put thought into it. Along with that you don't need money, the only thought will be makign sure you have a good time. For me thats correct one is taking the lead and "Courting" you the other is just being a lazy and thughtless :-)

Oh as with one of your examples I love to cook so I also plan romantic home meals but the same applies the lady must have no outlay at all. Her only thought is enjoying the time.

Its exactly as MOA says. I was infact always educated to believe that men are Gentlemen and women are Ladies. Yes it was the way I was raised I am Military in background and I still work for the Military in my present capacity. I come from a long family of Officers and Gentlemen. Its just the way I was raised ;-)

MOA thank you for a good explanation, could never had said it better there :-)

AnonWoman said...

Hi @Mirror and @Gemini50,

Last night I submitted a couple of comments from my iPhone, somehow, I don't think it works from my IPhone. This has happened before...it doesn't give the message in red 'your comment is waiting approval' either when I submit them. So I'm back on my Mac now.

Annnnyways, you have both got me thinking last night about paying for restaurant meals or days out, Gemini50, when I did used to pay for meals, do you know what? That's why I suspected things were going bad, so I was clutching at straws pulling that one out the bag. Never once did it work. Never once.

So I have learnt, not to do it now at all.

I'm happy with whatever a guy buys me, be it my favourite chocolate bar, because he has spent his hard earned cash on me and for that I am always grateful,

The only time I do not like it, it when a man does not buy me a romantic present for my birthday or Christmas - in that he buys me something practical instead. This is a big NO and the end of the relationship, as in sign wise.

Looking at my ex's, the ones that wanted to marry me, all bought me a romantic Christmas or birthday gift - be that a romantic experience, flowers, jewellry.

The relationship I was in two years, that went no where, he bought me a Palm Pilot. A man who buys something practical, uh no, he doesn't have romance and deep love on his mind.

"The Rules" book is right with that one.

Have a good day

Gemini 50 said...

@ Ms. Mirror and All,

Do you tell a gf when you learn their husband is cheating on them?

I have lunch a couple times a week with a couple of married gf's at work where we do all girl talk, and it's mostly them wanting to know what I'm doing in my dating life, my guy stories, and their advice how to "get a man."

They like to think they are my therapists, but they suck, and I tell them so, and we laugh at it, it's all in fun.

Well, yesterday one of them told me that the other's husband is cheating on her with a woman at work, flaunts it, has lost his friends at work because of it, etc.

Now, I know myself, and the value I have on my friendships. Friends I allow the closest to me are my family. I trust them to look out for me and me for them. Thus, I tell friend 1 we have to tell her. Friend 1 is torn... she's known since September - 5 mos.

Gesturing towards the area we have lunch, I say, "then WTF is all that?" Meaning, we really bond and laugh our axxes off and have become stronger gf's during these times, but keeping this kind of secret from one of us turns our bond into fucking crap -- a lie.

I told friend 1 that if she knew this about a man I was with, and didn't tell me, I'd be done with her. I couldn't trust her ever again. She was shocked. It's how I roll. Last yr, I ended a friendship with someone I had been thru thick and thin with for 26 yrs, because she finally showed her true colors (un-f'n-believable -- because of a man.) Done, gone and maybe it's a bad character traight of mine, but once I stop trusting someone, I walk away and don't look back. I'm not angry, I just get it, and I'm done.

So, I have asked friend 1 to get the name of the woman, find the name of the bar they are going to after work, and I'm going to figure out what to do. I still don't know.

Anyway, this is not about the man cheating, this is about girlfriends when a man is cheating.

Friend 1 believes the husband will make her turn on us and we'll lose a friend. I told friend 1 that if we don't tell her, we are not her friend, so what does it matter? Also, if she doesn't want us as her friend, that is her choice, but not telling her is being a fucking coward. Bullshit.

Friend 1 also doesn't want to hurt friend 2. I tell friend 1, if I knew she knew this about me, I'd be hurt worse if she didn't tell me.

So, I was going to ask everyone here their opinion on whether to tell friend 2 or not, but I've realized, typing this at 4 AM, it won't matter. I will do what I figure out what is the right thing... not quite sure yet. I think I will find a way to tell her, or I will end the friendship myself... if I'm not willing to tell a friend their husband is cheating on them with exact information to do with as they choose, then I'm really not THEIR friend, am I?

Gemini 50 said...

I should have added: what she does w/info is her business AND I will be there for her in any way if she asks/I can.

Still thinking what to do.....

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Gemini50,
This is a tough one friend. I've been on the receiving end of this. And how it came about what somewhat odd. I have lots of male friends, and when I say lots - I mean LOADS of them, LOL. And many, I've known since childhood, over 35 years.

Anywho, my ex was cheating and a group of these male friends caught him red handed one night at a bar. The 3 of them debated amongst themselves what to do - tell me or not?

I'm not sure how they decided or how it all came down, but one of them - actually one of them that I had not known as long as the others - phoned me one night and asked me to dinner. I thought it was odd as we're always together in groups, but the fact that he reached out like that, I knew something was wrong so I went.

And over dinner, he slowly started to reveal what him and the other two male friends of mine encountered a few nights before.

I am still friends with him to this day and I'm still friends with all the rest, even the one's I was closer with that couldn't bring themselves to be the one's to deliver the news.

I blamed my ex, not them. Some folks aren't able to handle it like that and will "shoot the messenger" but I didn't. I was actually angry that my ex had put them in that position with me. Because apparently, when he was busted that night, him and his ding-dong flavor of the week that week begged my male friends not to tell me.

I heard that and I was so pissed. So angry that he put those guys in that position with a long time friend like that - made them wrestle with their conscious like that - all for HIS benefit.

I could've care less about the girl, the ding-dong of the week, because my ex was involved with nothing BUT ding-dong women, really young naive, small town girls here and he swapped them out as often as he changed his underwear - and each one thought they were "special" to him. It was a joke, but the joke was on the ding-dongs, LOL. I knew, a woman always knows, but never had the red hot proof to make a firm decision with - until that day.

And that day, Dan saved my life. His name was Dan and I will forever be thankful to him for his courage, morals and values.

Now had that not happened and had I found out via a different method and NOT through those friends, but later found out the friends knew - yea, it might have destroyed 35+ year friendships.

But my crew is old school. We're all very tight and we all value our friendship. And the drama of my exes antics just wasn't going to wash with them (they've all washed their hands clean of him as a result).

But here's the thing . . . Dan had proof, he saw this with his own eyes and not only did he see it, my ex and the ding-dong of the week admitted to what they were doing when they begged my male friends to not tell me about it.

Had that been speculation without proof, things might have turned out differently. I would've never turned on them, our friendships are well beyond that, however, there would've been "wiggle room" for my ex to deny, deny, deny.

Me being me, I never would've bought into it. But not all women are the same, not all people are the same.

So before you decide to do anything here, I agree that doing the right thing and showing your loyalty is key here, but before putting your neck down on the guillotine, proof is needed.

If it were me, I'd find out where that bar is - and I'd get all the girls together for a drink after work - AT THAT DAMN BAR.

And I'd let this all unfold in that manner. Because once he's a deer caught in the headlights and the woman he's cheating with is faced with his wife (and a bit of humility and shame) - it shows. You can't shake that shit off, it shows.

And then she'll know :-(

And hopefully, that will be the first day of the rest of her life :-)

Alana said...

@Gemini,

It's a really good question - when I was much younger, I had ALWAYS insisted that I would be honest and upfront with my friends ("they should know", "it's the right/brave thing to do" etc).

However, over the years, I've actually done it - and EACH time I would end up losing the friendship.

That's not to say that your friend won't appreciate the honesty - I, for one, would want family and friends to tell me if I was the wife - but not everyone can face the truth.

That and the humiliation (which I think is the ultimate deal breaker in the friendship for most girls)... Some girls have actually come back years later to say that they were just too humiliated to stay friends with me, even know they knew that I was telling them the truth. And those are just the 1 or 2 that came back!

So all I can say is, tread carefully....

-Alana

Alana said...

MOA,

Do you think it's because you have so many guy friends, and have known them so long, that you developed a natural instinct for how guys think/feel/react?

I mean, I know you read a lot of books on the subject, but lots of women do too but they still lack the "intuition" part of the advice... I feel like you almost have a crystal ball most of the time! :)

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Gemini50,
I thought I might add, just for interests sake, that the 3 male friends of mine involved with the situation above, were:

Taurus
Virgo
Cancer

It was the Cancer (emotion, Water sign) that stepped forward to be the bearer of bad news and do the right thing.

It was the Virgo and Taurus (stability, Earth signs) that simply could not bring themselves to be the one's to do it, but that felt it must be done.

Had they been 3 of my male Aries friends (there are about 6 of them total I believe), I don't think this would've played out the way it did, LOL.

Not that Aries wouldn't do the right thing, but more so that Aries men might have gotten caught up in it (intense force, Fire sign) in other ways - like beating him up and punching him in his face (warrior energy) and not saying a word to me about it (protection), LOL ;-)

Alana said...

>It was the Cancer (emotion, Water sign) that stepped forward to be the bearer of bad news and do the right thing.

Hmm interesting... I'm cancer too :)

Maybe there really is something to all of this astrology thang ;)

Peter said...

@Gemini50,

"Do you tell a gf when you learn their husband is cheating on them?"

Yes you ALWAYS do. I was in this position seeing a lady I very much admired being cheated on so openly by my former best friend. It needed doing for her. I would do the same again without thinking. Loss of best friend or not.

However due to not wanting to give you a reason to doubt me as man I wont be telling you in ANY detail what happened or going further into that situation.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Alana,
Well, I'd be lying if I said they didn't help me figure them all out, LOL ;-)

They actually call me "one of the guys." Many of them are married and their wives are very cool women and we all get along smashingly. But it's funny, they go to this club, I call it the "he-man woman haters club" because it's a man's hunting/fishing club - women aren't allowed to sit at the bar there (Yea, I know). One of them invited me down there this weekend to - have deer burgers (Yea, I know, LOL). I was like, "You must have me confused with some other chick buddy."

Naturally, I've never stepped foot in the damn place (trust me, they don't want to see me coming through the damn door down there, LOL) . . but when they take their "man time" to get away. . . they ring my phone and ask me to join them - like one of the guys, LOL.

One time, someone outside of our circle made accusations about me being involved with one or more of them (I've never even so much as held one of their hands) and the one guy's reply was, "Who her? Please. She's one of the guys, she's one of us. That'd be like sleeping with my sister."

My acceptance into their "boy's club" so-to-speak has definitely helped me tremendously. I do get absorbed into the "secret society" they have and for some unknown reason, I'm permitted to enter it, permitted inside, LOL.

Often times, it reminds me of the relationship that Shirley MacClaine had with Dean Martin, Frank Sinatra, Sammy Davis Junior and the rest - otherwise known as the "Rat Pack" back in the day - where Shirley was considered "The Mascot" of their little pack:

http://www.retrospectmag.com/articles/2004/64-rat-pack-shirley-maclaine.html

I'm not sure they'd consider me their mascot, but I am on the inside of their "pack" and I can totally relate to Shirley's relationship with that group of men.

I hear all the conversations, all the sex stories, see all the texts, hear about all the experiences and/or fights, hear their views, hear their responses, see first hand what they're up to and how they think . . .I'm in, LOL.

So yea, I imagine it's served it's purpose and helped me tremendously.

Alana said...

>I hear all the conversations, all the sex stories, see all the texts, hear about all the experiences and/or fights, hear their views, hear their responses, see first hand what they're up to and how they think . . .I'm in, LOL.

That is so, so cool... I think it says a lot about how they respect you!

I have a couple of guy friends but they are so brief when it comes to talking about relationships/women, and so factual, that it's hard to learn from them. I guess I also don't hang out with them enough, too!

Gemini 50 said...

Thanks to all for your input.

Going to the bar was part of my plan to see first hand. Problem with bringing Friend 2 is that she and hubby work different shifts, and she's at home sleeping with kids when he's at the bar. But there's nothing to stop me from getting up in the middle of night and going... I'm trying to get their bar schedule and/or someone who can confirm when they are there for me in advance.

I talked to Friend 1 today about it a bit and she said she talked to two of her friends. Friend 1 is black, I'm white, Friend 2 is white. Friend 1 says her black friends say, "don't tell," because (appaently) black women always stick by their man and dump the friend.

Interesting little racial twist there, not that it matters. And I think Friend 1 is a Scorpio. Not sure what Friend 2 is.

The sad thing here is that Friend 2 is a really nice person. She's done all the right (smart) things, taken the right (smart) steps in life, made the right (smart) choices, raising her kids right, never has a bad word to say about anyone, just a solid good person, always tries to maintain "proper" behavior (which I tease her about), and now this.

It just sucks; and I'm still working through what I am going to do.

And, I want to say I am not judging the hubby or Friend 2 in this. It's their relationship, no one else's.

I feel an obligation to honor our friendship and show my respect for her by ensuring she knows and is not played the fool by her husband. What she does with the info is her business, it is not my role to judge. For all I know, she could say she knows, and it's none of my business.

I'll let you all know how it goes when it goes. UGH!

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@gemini50,
It's really sad when you hear about really, genuinely "nice" people getting the short end of the stick. Hence the old adage "nice guys/girls finish last."

But in the end, I imagine somehow the universe will see to it that she has the last laugh here.

Gemini 50 said...

@ All,

I've been waiting to post regarding my issue of whether to tell Friend 2 (F2)of her husband cheating on her until I had something to share.

After my last post, Friend 1 (F1) came to my office and "begged" me not to say anything to F2. She gave all her arguments, etc., and basically she is afraid F2 will not be able to handle it (even stating that F2 could hurt herself or her husband, etc.) F1 believes hubby is F2's first and only man in her life. F1 also learned that hubby has been cheating with this married woman at work for 10 yrs. (10 F'n YRS!!!)

To my surprise, F1 also told me that she would NOT want to be told by someone if her husband was cheating because she would be embarrassed. I am stronger/longer friends with F1 than F2, so I told F1, "F that, if I find out your hubby is cheating, I'm telling you!"

F1 told me I am stronger than most people, that most people do not think or live like me, etc.

And fate seems to have stepped in. Since finding this info out, we have not been able to hook up in a 3-way lunch because of meetings, workload, kids vacations, etc.

So, what I did agree with F1 to do is when we do get together is come up with a 'what if' scenario and say my 30-yr old daughter has found out that one of her friend's husband is cheating on her and wanted to know if she should tell her. So, (in this scenario) I told my daughter that I would ask my 'married' friends if they would want to know.

Depending on what F2 says for an answer, will contribute to what happens next.

So many variables, I am still not sure what I will do.

UGH!

Anonymous said...

Hello MOA! :)

Okay, here it goes! This guy I use to date reached out to me and claimed he wants to be "friends" with me and wanting to start fresh as friends. It's weird to me b/c we haven't talked in months plus I am moving out of state in a few months so I'm thinking what is the point of being friends now. Plus, he has a girlfriend so I am really like what is the purpose!

I befriended him and we only chat via text. Recently, he has brought up our previous intimate moments when we were dating. He has made advances at me claiming he is tempted to want to "hook up" with me, sending me dirty pics and telling me how attractive I am and wanting me to send provocative pics. I have been blunt with him and pretty much told him he just wants to "hit it and quit it" before I leave the state.

I keep reminding him that he has a girlfriend, but apparently to him it doesn't matter. Everytime I tell him maybe we shouldn't be friends b/c of temptation he gets upset and says I'm "wishy washy." I know this would be easy if I was giving advice to someone else, but when it comes to me I am so confused.

I guess I am just confused to why is he adamant about being friends if I am moving away? Plus he has a girlfriend. Also, what is he trying to prove or is he just trying to accomplish a hidden agenda to boost his ego b/c he's insecure? Is he trying to have the best of both worlds?

I desperately need some advice with this one! LOL

- Laid-back Chica

-

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Laid Back Chicago,
If he'll cheat with you...he'll cheat on you. That's a fact.

He sounds like a blatant player. Yes he's seeking sex and I'd strongly advise you to pull away from this man before you get sucked into a painful vortex of drama that ends up hurting innocent people like his girlfriend as well. Don't create that kind of karma for yourself. A guy like this is not worth that price to pay.

He needs to stop with the dirty pics too. What kind of a woman does he think you are? Some kind of harlot? It's very disrespectful and it says a lot bout what his intentions are and what he thinks of you :-(

RUN. RUN...AND KEEP RUNNING.

Gemini 50 said...

Still haven't had lunch with 3 of us... seems fate has stepped in.

Or, if F2 has been here reading (I had told F1 and F2 about Ms. Mirror when I first found this site), and the inability to get together is because of what she's read from me here, then Girl, all I can say is I am sorry, and I won't say a word. It's your business. Just know if you need help or want to talk, I'm here for you -- let's get back to our laugh-filled lunches. Hugs

Peter said...

@MOA and the Ladies

I've given this to MOA before but I thought I would add it here to give you ladies something extra and contribute to the fine post on the subject. It's another little look into what some men are looking for.

Another article for you to look over and add to your knowledge.

Mens Health Core Knowledge-Organising the Gentlman, Gentleman we can improve you

1 in 7 men cheat 5 experts give advice on how to minimize the fallout on you and get away with the affair

Humans feel guilt thats given but as men you need to understand that you don't decide by your guilt, you instead based on her own insecurity level. Even if you do end up having to tell if you follow advice the worst you will end up is a woman with some general misery.

Tip 1 The Evolutionary Pyshologist-Keep your meetings infrequent to around once around once per week, this explainable it gives you deniablity. Plus its easier to keep hidden and you don't have to get attached, a once a week work meeting with close colleagues is explainable and plausable as an ecuse to brush away.

Tip 2 The Professional Risk Analyst-Evaluate and Analyze what you know of her in orde to know hw to handle it and keep it hidden. You need to know where she could damage you if she found out so keep those things seperate and there will be no reason to fear damage if it ever does come out. That way you have less of a risk factor to fear and can emotional move forward with positive outcome.

Tip 3-The Catholic Priest-When your feeling of guilt comes from somethign you simply "did wrong" then decide to let it go and keep it to yourself. Remedy this by offering to spend more time with your loved one. If you want to feel better about yourself then keep it hidden and don't tell anyone. Telling people adds to the guilt and can create an opening for her to find out.

Tip 4-The Divorce Lawyer-If you always comminicate well as a couple and that continues then keep it hidden. Try to minimize your emotional invovlement and so your guilt. If you learn how not to project guilt yo can be in the driving sear because female intuition is a powerful thing..if you project guilt or it plays on your mind then assume she knows. In a lot of divorce cases its your mobile or communicationa ctivity that gives it away. If you set clear guidelines and don't change your patterns you won't set of alarm bells most of the time especially if you keep your mobile "clean". If you got away with yor incident and she show no changes at all and is clueless then say nothing it's likely it'll pass.

Tip 5-The Gossip Columnist-Very simple keep sexually clean with good checks, push aside guilt and never tell. As a man it'll gain you nothing. If shes younger than you or earns less then its likely you can leverage her if you control the money. If she has antying she can leverage against you then more then ever..dont tell her.

Peter said...

Cont...

So what if you affair is at work? You want to loosen more than your tie with that hot work colleage and get away with it..what do you do?

1.New or Younger Talent-If shes younger than you or new at the office then you canmake this work for you. Shes young so shes more likely looser and she probabaly wont know who you know or your spouse may know at at work in the same age group. This is perfect for secret once night stands. So focus on telling her it's no strings, drunk sex and you both get in get out and get away with it and don't say a word.

2-You have mutual friends in the same office-Ensure there are simple work reasons why you would be seen with another women and keep it simple so they wont read into it. That way if they suspect from a change of activity then it looks like your're just favouritist. Simple excuses will lead a simple punishment for you because they have only simple things to see and no evidence.

3-Make sure she stays quiet-Use her guilt and smooth her ego. Make it knownn how bad thia would be if it came out. Noth just for her but for everyone else. Make it sound like you're appealing to her virtue and she will respect you more.

4-Keep clients sweet and distracted- Use her personal email and hide your behaviour from clients. That way they have no reason to dig for illegal activity regarding business blackmail laws..closing one more avenue. They have no reason to look and they laws regarding clients will keep you clean as there is no evidence. Think like a lawywer and use her persoanl emails or contact adresses then keep yours clean meaning if anything official comes out it's all hers and you cover yourself.

5-Focus on the the example in your reputation-Use your reupation to set out acceptable behaviour in the office then be seen to follow it as it cant be in doubt. Out line this to her too and cover yourself as above then if it does come out all the evidence points to her and every one sees you as acting properly. Focus on your professionalism and how you never vilolate that. This makes you look magnanimous and anythign she does maker look like a bitter bitch waging aggressive all out war against your all out peacefulness and peace keeping behaviour.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

This publication is like the equivalent to a woman's gossip magazine, LOL - a bunch of useless, nefarious crap information. If you have to be taught how to cheat - then you shouldn't be cheating - period - because no advice in the world is going to stop her from catching you, LOL. And generally, cheaters always get caught. It might take a year, it might take 5 years, but either way, the truth finds it's way to the light of day. Particularly during breakup periods, separations and divorce rumors. When folks that know about the cheating (and have been dying to gossip about it) hear that things are "on the rocks" - THAT'S WHEN THEY TALK. Which is why this publication is heavily promoting the "tell no one" aspect. But what they fail to recognize, once again about women LOL, is that WOMEN TALK. So it doesn't matter if the guy keeps his lips zipped because:

1) The other woman will SAVE all of those texts, emails, photos, etc.

2) The other woman will have told at least 3-5 individuals in her life about the affair and those individuals will also have witnessed, first hand, the communications taking place and probably save them as well in the form of forwarded texts, emails, photos, etc. (thus providing a data backup similar to that of a computer backup, LOL).

3) When the man gets caught or finds himself being suspected by others and he derails those attempts by humiliating, degrading or treating the other woman as non-existent or with dismissal - those 3-5 friends of hers will be more than happy to rally to her side in support of "her side" of the situation - and they'll show up, AND SHOW OFF, all of those forwarded texts, emails, photos, etc.

They're leaving out the most crucial aspect here and that's that the other woman WILL TALK and WILL SHOW even if the man doesn't. And it doesn't even have to be someone the woman is close with. It can be a complete and total stranger that's disgusted by their behavior (the two that are cheating) or by the man's behavior - and she too will gather her own form of evidence to bring the cheater down.

Cont. . .

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

Take for example this photo that a woman took on a train trip from Philadelphia - that went viral with 86,000 shares:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/07/is-this-your-husband-face_n_3405192.html

Think about that - 86,000 people assisted in attempting to bring a cheating man down. 86,000 strangers POSSESSED and SHARED photo information and verbal information conveyed about cheating in that situation.

And when his wife sees that (and she will eventually, trust me), none of these tactics will have worked for him or his buddies doing the same thing on that train because there is no motivation for a complete stranger to make this crap up. He's guilty and he also ends up publically humiliated.

Some people believe men get away with cheating but I, myself, don't believe those are the odds. Odds are more likely that the woman knows or has known for years - but CHOSE to stay, for whatever reason. So I'd be more apt to say that when men cheat and the wife gives the appearance she doesn't know and they remain married - it's an illusion that the wife has chosen to keep, along with her miserable marriage and philandering husband.

Because studies have shown it's actually WOMEN who get away with cheating more than men:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2161706/Almost-women-cheat-caught-partners---fifth-men-DO-out.html

"Almost all women who cheat never get caught by their partners.... but a fifth of men DO get found out"

"Survey found 95 per cent of women and 83 per cent of men have cheated on partners and not been found out"

"Women are better liars because they are more psychologically sophisticated"

Women talk about this shit. When my ex was cheating, after we separated, I had one of his buddy's wives beat on my door at 11PM at night - to tell me (we had never met and were complete strangers) that my ex was spotted kissing another woman in a bar. The man can keep his mouth shut all he wants. But he shouldn't be stupid enough to think that the woman will or the women around them both, LOL.

Anonymous said...

Hello Mirror,

At the end of March when Libra Guy took down his profile (coincidentally after I had taken down mine), you said that he'd back on again sometime soon.

Well, you were right; he's back on AGAIN after 2-3 months.

I even thought to myself, "Doesn't mean anything. Pretty sure he's still in a relationship."

So I caught up on his gf's Twitter/Facebook posts - and they're actually visiting his hometown together.

The whole thing that baffles me is - he's on a weekend trip with her, yet he's checking the dating site, and he even changed the location of his profile to the city he's visiting.

It's not like he can meet anyone while he's physically with her (unless they're looking for some sexy times with another person).

Cheaters typically check a dating site behind their gf's back in the comfort of their own home.

But Libra Guy is on a trip with his gf, and they're sleeping/staying in the same place. She might even be there to meet his parents for the first time.

How could he do this, and why would he?

Libra Guy is insecure, but I thought for insecure men, it would be more like an emotional need that needs to be filled when he's alone/not with his gf.

If he has the full attention of his gf while they're on the trip - why the need to seek attention? Again, I doubt he has time to meet up with anyone - unless he's being extra risky (for the thrill) and scheduling something while she's out checking things in his hometown.

- Vivian

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Vivian
Well dear, now you see why I beat it into women's heads and constantly repeat here that insecure men DO NOT make good boyfriends, lovers and husbands. They just don't.

And that's because they need lots of attention to feel like men, and that's mostly female attention. An insecure man can be happy as a loon in his relationship - but one woman is not enough to make up for his feeling "less" as a man somehow and, as a result, there will ALWAYS be a need for attention from more than one woman.

He's probably checking that stuff on his cell phone and I imagine she thinks he's texting or something rather innocent. This guy's been at this since day one with her - and that could've been you. My guess is that he's cheated AT LEAST once by now, but the odds are that it's been probably two or three by now.

And him switching to that other city - yep, I've seen that before. Particularly when it's a city the individual will be visiting more than once, like a hometown. Those guys (and men that travel) will have a girl, ready and on the waiting, in each town they visit. She's a member of the "rotation" of women men like this keep going. Doesn't matter if he only sees her once every 2 or 3 months, in the meantime, he'll suck attention off of her and string her along until he gets to see her again.

This guy's really insecure and it's ALWAYS going to take more than one woman's attention to make him feel like a man (because deep down inside, he feels the exact opposite.)

Anonymous said...

@ Vivian

You can feel lucky that you aren´t in his girlfriend´s place. A man like this, even when he gets married, will continue doing the same thing... Definitely not a desirable partner. :-(

Anonymous said...

After several years of our relationship I started to see her less attractive. I was drawn to beautiful girls I saw on my way, university and parties & I couldn't help it. But I never ever ever ever cheated on her. I looked at her and saw that the effort she puts to make our relationship better makes her tired and less attractive. I worked very hard and shared the work, I bought her cosmetics when she ran out, I told her that I wanna see her as beautiful as I saw her first. She does all her beauty culture to please me and it makes me madly in love with her. Now we have become inseparable. Believe it or not, we didn't have a fight in 2 years. No cheating, not even a kissing an outsider for the entire relationship. It's the power of communication, attentiveness and unconditional love.

Anonymous said...

Absolutely amazing article. So much insight I really needed to see. I discovered my husbands cheating 3.5 weeks ago. I'm still reeling but the information is very valuable in trying to make sense of it all. Thank you so much.

Anonymous said...

Most Women are the absolute worst when it comes to Cheating, and they are so Very Sad And Pathetic as well.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous October 31, 4:45PM,
Men and women both cheat, but many times, for very different reasons. Unfortunately, we're not exploring why women cheat in this particular piece, but as a woman, most of the women I know that have done so have done so for emotional reasons.

Meaning, they're feeling emotionally starved in their current relationship and experiencing neglect, being taken for granted, suffering disrespect, verbal abuse, mental abuse, emotional abuse, etc. Naturally, this won't apply to all women - nor am I condoning that behavior. Regardless of the reason, it's simply the wrong way to go about things and/or to relieve yourself or release yourself of your current relationship/marriage and/or any emotional neglect or abusive behavior being suffered there.

And I believe this statement extends to include ALL individuals, both male and female:

"they are so very sad and pathetic as well."

Yea, most cheaters generally are - male or female. Cheating, in and of itself, is a very desperate act.

Anonymous said...

Hi There,

I just need to say something about the last two comments on here.

I don't think it's ever right to call someone sad or pathetic. The truth is we all find ourselves in situations throughout life where the circumstances are just right for us to make very bad choices, sometimes people find themselves doing things they never thought they would ever be able to. None of us are perfect and we are all learning, some of us will learn from such experiences as cheating and grow from it and never repeat it, others will continue, until they eventually learn from it, that's how the universe rolls, we are dealt with what is needed for us to grow, we all have past pains, trials and tribulations....

If you are hurt by someones actions, eg. a cheating spouse or partner, it really wont make you feel better to look at them with hate and shove them off as Sad or Pathetic. What will make you feel better is to accept that they are human, they too have their paths and things to learn, forgiving them will help you let go and move forward. Not dissing them, because no one has the right to judge anyone else, because no one is perfect and no one can truly grasp what is going on inside of another individual.

I am not condoning cheating at all, but I also cannot agree with judging and dissing those that do end up making mistakes along their journey through life.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous November 1, 6:54AM,
That's okay, you don't have to agree. We can simply agree to disagree. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on the matter.

Referring to someone's immediate state of mind after the event as sad and pathetic is a bit different to me than referring to them like that entirely as in individual. From my experience, most who do cheat and have sex with another other than their spouse or mate, particularly over an extended period of time leading to a full blown affair, are indeed sad after the fact and do give others the perception of being a bit pathetic state of mind in that moment. It stinks, I know. And maybe the word pathetic isn't the best description of it. But it is what it is at that time.

I realize that we're all only human. But I also realize that each and every one of us has to be responsible and accountable for our own actions and the perception we emit to others. And while we may be able to understand the circumstances behind the event, we should not then use those circumstances as an excuse to escape the consequences of our behavior. And many times, those consequences are indeed that we have made a negative impression on others via our own behavior.

That doesn't mean that you can't redeem yourself at some future point in time. But it does mean that the consequences of your behavior will result in you never really being able to change that one moment in time following the discovery of the event, where you did commit the offense, and it did create a negative impression about yourself on others in that moment.

I have been cheated on. My ex to this day, some 9 years later, has never expressed remorse for his actions. I have forgiven him, I have moved on and I am actually, believe it or not, thankful for that event because it helped me to realize that I wasn't happy, he wasn't happy - and it is that event that has brought me to where I am today in life - which is a very good place. And for that, I am thankful.

And while I understand what may have led up to his behavior, and even accepted any part I myself may have played in that, it still doesn't change the fact that in that moment following the discovery of this event - he was sad and his behavior was desperate and somewhat pathetic. And no, in his case, this wasn't because he was remorseful. . . .it was because he got caught. And no real understanding or extended measure of forgiveness will ever be able to wipe that moment in time from history. It will always and forever still exist, along with any existing understanding and forgiveness that may follow that.

I imagine this is all probably about perception, which varies person to person as it is subjective here. Perception is only an interpretation of sensory assumptions from a given moment in time. And as we all know, these interpretations can differ between individuals.

Thanks for sharing, it's an interesting discussion that I imagine many have varied opinions on, of which they are perfectly entitled to :-)

Anonymous said...

No mention of good, old-fashioned "boredom"? Remember, for every beautiful woman, there's a man tired of f*cking her.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous January 2, 8:08PM,
No, no mention of boredom. Because if a man gets "bored" with a woman that easily and is only using shallow emotions to guide him through a partnership, then he's simply a man that isn't emotionally mature enough and ready for a real relationship and shouldn't even get married in the first place.

Every relationship gets boring after it settles down into a comfortable routine and that's when you then rely on the deeper emotional connections to continue to bind you together. Things such as friendship, admiration, respect, etc. are what truly binds two individuals together for a lifetime. So if you're someone simply seeking a new fix and an exciting experience like a love junkie all the time and expecting the woman in your life to perform like a circus monkey to keep you stimulated and entertained 24/7. . .then you're simply living a shallow existence feeding shallow emotions that will be unable to keep you bound for a long term committed relationship. Not to mention, you'll also be thoroughly exhausting the woman in your life in the process by expecting her to "perform" for you 24/7 just to get you to stick around.

I don't believe woman were put on this earth to perform and exhaust themselves physically and emotionally every single day just to keep a man in their life nor do I believe they'd consider that happiness. Additionally, that lifestyle is so thoroughly exhausting to a woman that I imagine at the end of the day, she'd be too tired to "perform" anyway.

So if a guy finds himself constantly getting "bored" with women and finds that the woman he's with is too drained to continue to stimulate him - he should consider possibly looking to himself and his expectations of relationships for the solution to that. He should consider asking himself if he's asking/expecting too much of his partner and possibly giving too little in return while placing hefty importance on shallow emotions and not focusing enough on the deeper ones that keep couples bound for a lifetime.

I've heard this saying before, "for every beautiful woman, there's a man tired of f*cking her" and it mainly flies out of the mouths of immature men that honestly just do not have the emotional skill set required to maintain a lifelong commitment with one woman. And if that's the case, that's okay. There's no law that says you have to get married and I wouldn't suggest that men who feel that way about the women in their lives after a while even consider marriage.

If a man gets bored that easily with women and has no deeper connection with her to fall back on, I'd suggest that they stay single and live the "exciting" life of a single man instead of marrying a nice "boring" woman who will waste her life and her happiness away acting like a circus monkey to keep him stimulated enough to even stick around.

Remember, it takes two to tango. So if a man gets easily bored with the woman in his life, just imagine for one moment what that woman thinks of the man in her life (needy, childish, immature, demanding, selfish, egotistical, shallow. . .the list goes on and on and eventually, all of the hefty "need" and shallow demands from the man frankly exhausts her and puts a damper on her attraction for him in the long run. Just sayin'. .)

Mark128 said...

"Why? Because the implication is very primal - a cheating wife or girlfriend can bear another man's child. Even though the implications for a woman are much the same - a cheating husband or boyfriend can father another woman's child - for men, due to the male ego and their overall masculinity, this outcome is much more damaging. Therefore, the mere thought of it is literally sickening to them. Every man sees himself as "The Man" in his head. The only man."

Ok this is stupid. As if being a confident man has something to do with ego. Men who dont constantly search google for reason their woman might cheat has nothing to do with the fact that they are sickened by the thought of their woman giving birth to someone elses child. Lol first of all I think anyone would be grossed out by that scenario. If a woman is married and gives birth to a man besides her husband's child I dont think she would want to be found out and walk around with that label because lets face it, its pretty friggen gross. Shed never live that down with her family community etc. a lot of men dont waste their energy worrying about whether or not their partner is cheating because these men dont behave in ways like cheating men or women do. Most men who find out their partner broke vows or promises are shocked initially whereas they cant make sense of it because they dont understand their partner cheated due to problems they have within themselves. People who are insecure cheat. If the cheating spouse really cared about the person they were cheating with they would leave their significant other then pursue the new relationship. When people cheat its usually for selfish reasons and self gratification and the person they are unfaithful with is usually just a body being used. I learned all of this after being cheated on. Its very sad that a woman so wonderful could sink to such lows due to poor self esteem and lack of self value. Most men dont wander through the day searching the web for clues as to whether or not their woman is going to get knocked up by another man because most men who commit to their woman do not know beforehand whether or not she is without any morals or self respect of any kind. A married woman or committed girlfriend who would bear a man outside of her marriages child has some serious mental issues and should seek spiritual help.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Mark128,
"Ok this is stupid."

I'm sorry that you feel that way, however, that statement falls in line with what evolutionary biologists have deduced about the matter. That concept stems from scientific research, not from my singular views.

"anyone would be grossed out," "its pretty friggen gross"

You're attaching some very interesting terminology, a very derogatory "buzz" word, to women and the scenario of birth there.

"Shed never live that down with her family, community, etc."

If only the thousands of men who do this every single day suffered the same level of shame that you're attaching to women here, then maybe they'd stop THEIR participation in making these babies outside of wedlock. If men were considered "gross" as well for participating in this act and being half responsible for the final outcome, maybe we wouldn't have our government being forced to financially support the thousands and thousands of babies that men create outside of wedlock and then deny and don't work to support.

"People who are insecure cheat."

While I agree with that to a certain extent, there are other motivations that cause it, particularly in women, where those motivations can be deeply emotional - neglect from their spouse, emotional abuse from their spouse, verbal abuse from their spouse - when women lack emotional fulfillment from their spouse, it can cause them to cheat. I'm not condoning that, but simply pointing out that there can be other factors driving it besides insecurity.

"Its very sad that a woman so wonderful could sink to such lows due to poor self esteem and lack of self value."

Yes it is. And I'm sorry that you had to go through that. If her motivation was low self esteem and lack of value, that is sad indeed. However, as I stated above, emotions can also be motivating factors for women to behave in this manner and sometimes I think men dismiss female emotions and minimize them as unimportant because they don't experience them as deeply and in the complicated manner as women do sometimes. Again, not condoning it, but simply pointing out that apathy, abuse and spousal neglect can also play a large role as well.

"A married woman or committed girlfriend who would bear a man outside of her marriages child has some serious mental issues and should seek spiritual help."

I believe we have thousands of men roaming this planet that have fathered children outside of wedlock that need the very same assistance as you're suggesting women do here.

Cont...

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...


"It "seems" like you are praising women for closing the gap on cheating"

I understand how it can be interpreted like that, but if you knew me, if you followed the thousands of comments on this site, you'd know better than to judge me like that. I have women here who write on occasion, having questions about cheating on their boyfriends and spouses, and guess what? I refuse to answer those questions, I refuse to provide advice on how to accomplish that. And instead, I advise them that they need to address the problems within their marriages/relationships and maintain their loyalty to their husbands/boyfriends until which time they have either resolved the issue - or left their spouse or boyfriend.

The only reason I addressed that in this article, was because it needs to be said that women these days are cheating just about as much as men - so what's fair is fair. Meaning, it needs to be acknowledged that women are also behaving in the same manner, it's not one sided these days, women are guilty of it just as much as men are. That's all that was. Like I said, read through comments on this site and you'll see me refusing to provide advice on how to cheat - and you'll see it more than once.

"This is where I ask what has happened to the beautiful female species"

Hey I get it...because all the women here are asking the same damn thing about that rare, near extinct beast, the "gentleman" LOL (a rare breed that we don't actually get to discuss much on this site because the stories shared here generally do not involve gentlemenly behavior unfortunately).

These days many men feel entitled to sex without lifting a finger for a woman. If she wants a man to show her some respect and pay for a dinner or a dumb sandwich, she's immediately judged and labeled "high maintenance" and too much work. For many men (not all but many), a good date in thier eyes nowadays is - a boring evening being groped on his sofa - which is where many dates usually end up after one or two real dates that actually involve going out in public on a real date (Don't believe me, read the comments on this site left by thousands of women). These days, many men (not all, but many) feel that "hooking up" IS dating, and it's not - those are two entirely different things that will lead to two entirely different outcomes. Dating involves courtship rituals and is geared towards leading to long term commitment. While hooking up involves...well, nothing other than hooking up and the instant gratification of shallow sexual needs which. . .leads nowhere after a month or so.

"why would women be proud to catch up on the stats of such shitty behavior?"

I don't know. That's a good question. Where exactly is this pride you speak of? If you're once again making snap judgments of me and erroneously pinning that on me, sorry my friend. As I've stated above, read the comments on this site and you'll see me refusing to advise on the matter as I do NOT condone it nor do I advocate it.

Cont...

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

"Im a man 33 years old Italian male who has been in. 3 serious LTRs and not once have i ever cheated or pursued meaningless sex to satisfy my ego. I love and respect women in general and it breaks my heart to see women starting to mimic the behavior and actions of douche bag guys. Women should work to set a better example. Not all men are dogs... You dont need to behave like one in order to win some race of infidelity. I myself as a man would rather be part of the minority and have some class and dignity and I adore the women that do."

I think that's wonderful and refreshing to see - and hey, if how you see yourself and describe yourself is actually true...you may want to consider sticking around this community and lending the ladies here a hand.

Because there are hundreds of them here seeking good men, LOL ;-)

Anonymous said...

Hi MOA I wondered what your perspective is on suspecting cheating but having no concrete proof other than a raging gut instinct? He has cheated once before two months into the relationship, at a bachelor party of his best friend and the clowns hired a stripper to entertain them. I heard (from a mutal female friend) that he made out with her with a god knows what else. Should have booked then but we agreed to move past it.

Three years later I don't have proof but an all of a sudden gut feeling, like a huge kick to the stomach and my throat tightening, it's like my body couldn't even help doing these things when it dawned on me. I even tried to "forgive him" in my mind even though he denied denied denied. And when I tried to move forward it was like something was pulling me back or screaming at me that something is not right. It was horrible, like I began to see this man for the first time for who he really was.

I ended it soley on my gut feelings. There were other instances (finding condoms in his truck, his buddy cheats on his wife regularly). Took a few months of denial that he would ever cheat but I finally got the balls to walk away. Reason being he has done it before (only through a gracious friend telling me), and something was telling me that he had several sexcapades throughout our several years together. I didn't want to wait to find any proof, nor did I want to know what else his activities were (or how many women there were) that I didn't know about. I had to cut off completely and disappear.

I'm devastated and really hurt. Do men ever have remorse or guilt even, knowing how it makes their girlfriend feel? This guy certainly didn't seem to have any remorse and I thought we had something good between us. Like a great relationship (we had a very active and experimental sex life) and then BAM - done. :-(

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous June 18, 2:05PM,
"I wondered what your perspective is on suspecting cheating but having no concrete proof other than a raging gut instinct? He has cheated once before.."

I always suggest listening to your gut. Besides, you don't NEED proof dear. It doesn't matter if he's cheated or not. What matter is how he makes you feel. And if he's making you feel taken for granted and like crap, then you don't stay. It's time to go.

"his buddy cheats on his wife regularly"

NOT good - birds of a feather flock together. And if they're both emotionally immature, this is probably like a game to them. They probably brag and encourage one another in this behavior. His friend won't be a good influence at all.

"Do men ever have remorse or guilt even, knowing how it makes their girlfriend feel?"

Some do, but not all. And emotionally immature men never really "get it" - until it happens to THEM. Then you see the fireworks fly LOL.

"I began to see this man for the first time for who he really was."

He was always that guy dear, "He has cheated once before." :-(

"This guy certainly didn't seem to have any remorse"

Don't ever look back dear. Who cares what he thinks, he's a piece of crap. Don't expect any miracles from him. And if he ever calls, do NOT for one minute even consider speaking with him again - he deserves consequences for his actions (ignored), not rewarded (your attention).

It's been my experience that men who cheat are a complete lost cause. And the reason for this is because most tend to use that behavior as a coping mechanism. So even if they've reformed themselves years ago and everything seems fine, if they find themselves under stress again or unhappy for whatever reason, they revert right back to old familiar patterns (gambling, cheating, drinking, drugs, etc.)

It's a form of escapism. Instead of dealing with the real problem, they instead revert to bad behavior to cope with the stress or unhappiness. So even if they're on the straight and narrow for years, the loss of a job, or loss of a family member or even something as simple as a bad day at work...can send them running to those old crutches (women, booze, drugs, etc.)

In the end dear, they're a lost cause. You're much better off having walked away and instead, focusing on yourself. That's what's important, not him. He wasn't making you happy anyway, so why wish for more unhappiness ya' know? Because that's what letting him back into your life would bring.

Instead, embrace your newfound freedom, get yourself back on the scene or try online dating to get your feet wet and start meeting new people. Find a man that appreciates you and treats you special and shows you the respect you deserve. Your energy will be spent much better on those activities than it will on a some guy who's a jerk anyway and isn't even capable of appreciating something good in the first place :-)

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