We’re going to take an in-depth look into the concept known as dumper versus dumpee in the world of dating and a break up.
There is much debate as to who suffers more after a break up - the dumper or the dumpee? We’re also going to explore the likelihood of one or the other requesting a renewed relationship after the break up.
After much consideration, study and research on the subject, it could just be that the pain involved is not what affects the ultimate outcome. But we’ll get to that.
However, it does pay to explore where both, the dumper and dumpee’s, minds, thoughts and feelings may be at the time of the occurrence of a dump as well as month’s afterwards.
So let’s break this down by first taking a look at what might be going on in the mind of both the dumper and dumpee in this situation and then we’ll move along from there.
Dumper or Dumpee: Who’s Hurting More?
Man Disrespects or Disappoints The Woman
In this scenario, the reason for the break up is apparent – the woman feels disrespected and/or disappointed by the man in some way and, as a result, she feels compelled to stand up for herself and dumps the man before he begins taking her for granted. She doesn’t necessarily WANT to do this, yet she HAS to do this if she’s to be respected and treated properly by men.
As a result, I believe the woman, the dumper here, would be very open to a return from the man to reignite the relationship (unless he cheated). Chances are she’s hurting badly and left wondering why he did what he did that forced her to take this action. So if the dumpee, the man, returns to make amends, I believe he will have an increased success rate of actually repairing things and making amends, as long as his intentions are genuine, he apologizes, becomes accountable for his actions and shows the woman the respect she deserves.
Who’s hurting more: In this case, I believe the dumper is hurting more than the dumpee.
Woman Disrespects or Disappoints The Man
In this scenario, we have a couple of additional dynamics involved when compared to the situation above. And those would be 1) male ego and 2) male pride. These can complicate things and create a very different outcome. If a man feels embarrassed (pride) and emasculated (ego) by the woman and he dumps her as a result, he will be very hurt and the chances of him returning to reignite the relationship are decreased. As a result, I believe the man here would be less likely to return to reignite the relationship.
Who’s hurting more: In this case, I believe the dumpee is hurting more than the dumper.
A possible variable to that would be – if HE did something to bring this disrespect or disappointment from the woman upon himself and she then dumped him. In which case, after a considerable amount of time has passed since he’s last communicated with her (one to three months), he may begin to miss her and rethink things and realize that his actions caused the woman’s behavior. As a result, he may return to make amends and attempt to reignite the relationship.
Who’s hurting more: In this case, I believe the dumper would initially be the one hurting and the dumpee would begin to hurt some time later.
The Woman Chases and “Spooks” The Man Away
In this scenario, the woman is taking the natural order of things, man leads and woman submits as set by Mother Nature, and she’s turning things on their head here. Men view this behavior from women as very unnatural and, as a result, they start to make assumptions about the woman like, “needy,” “desperate,” “clingy,” and “emotionally unstable.” None of which make for a healthy relationship. Men instinctually recognize the signs of an unhealthy pairing and, therefore, tend to avoid one like the plague.
Men will run from the above scenario to take a breather and come up for air. To a man, this feels like one minute - he’s floating happily in a sea of possibilities. Then, all of a sudden and out of nowhere, Jaws grabs a hold of his leg under the water and begins pulling him into the dark depths of the ocean – and his possibilities are now all gone.
Given enough time and space (generally one to 3 months) in this scenario, a man may begin to miss the woman (if he has not had any contact with her since the break up) and there is a high likelihood that he will return. However, it won’t be to reignite the relationship – chances are it will be to start all over again, from square one, casually dating the woman, in an attempt to see if she’s really as crazy as he first thought she was.
Who knows, maybe he was wrong about her? That’s what he will think if the woman initiates no contact after the dump and disappears on him. The fact that she didn’t chase (as he expected her to) and act like an obsessed psycho will make him rethink his assumptions of her so he’ll begin to second guess himself and return to see if he might have been wrong.
Who’s hurting more: In this case, I believe the dumpee is hurting more than the dumper.
The Man Aggressively “Spooks” The Woman Away
Yes, ladies. Women run scared, too. I’ve done it myself. If a man begins to pressure a woman and move in on her quick, like lightening, and issues ultimatums to her, she may bolt and run scared - just as a man would do. She’ll develop suspicions about the man and she’ll wonder, “Why is he in such a rush? Does he have ulterior motives here?” Her trust for him will decrease; her suspicions of him will increase. It’s a fine line.
In these scenarios, it’s all about trust folks. Women are preyed upon as sexual objects by men daily and, as a result, their guard is up when they meet a man. If they feel that the pursuit is becoming unnaturally aggressive in some manner, much like a rabbit being chased through tall grass, she’ll feel like she’s being preyed upon. Her defenses will rise up and she’ll spring into action and run from what she perceives as an oncoming threat.
In the spook scenario, for men the oncoming threat is one of commitment. For women, the oncoming threat is one of being eaten up and devoured for dinner (sexed up and dumped) and left for dead.
However, much like men in the spook scenario, given a considerable amount of time to process what happened, the woman may eventually reach the conclusion that she might have been wrong about the man – that she might have misinterpreted his actions.
As a result, the woman may circle back around to the man in an attempt to communicate with him once again, to see if she was wrong about him. Or, after a considerable amount of time (one to three months), the man may return to touch base with the woman in an attempt to test the waters. And if his approach is soft, the woman will likely give him a second chance to reignite the relationship.
Who’s hurting more: In this case, I believe the dumpee is hurting more than the dumper.
Man Dumps Woman For No Apparent Reason
Hey, it happens. And usually, the dumpee, the woman, will spend most, if not all, of her time consumed with “why” this happened. Reliving it and rehashing it in her mind, over and over and over again.
There is a reason behind the break up. However, it could be one of many and trying to suss out the real reason is generally a waste of time, energy and effort. The reasons may include:
- He’s a player and only intended to use the woman for sex and had no intention of a relationship.
- He tried dating the woman in an effort to get to know her, and he did – and concluded that, for whatever reason, she wasn’t the one.
- He’s a coward and he cannot communicate his feelings emotionally.
- He’s cheating on the woman.
- The woman pursued him and spooked him away.
- The woman was emotionally needy, unstable, clingy and overbearing.
- He thinks she’s cheating on him.
- He got what he wanted, sex, and it’s time to move onto the next conquest.
- An ex has resurfaced that’s distracted his attention from you, to her.
- He met someone else more interesting while dating the woman.
- He’s emotionally unavailable and has a deep rooted fear of commitment.
- He lives far away and doesn’t want a long distance relationship.
- He lives in another country and realizes that the two will never be together.
- He’s a serial dater.
- He was simply bored and looking for something to do at the time.
As you can see, attempting to boil down the reason to one single factor becomes near impossible to do. In which case, his level of interest will tell the tale. (And we’ll get to that below in a moment.)
The likelihood of the man returning is high here – IF the woman disappears and does not contact or attempt to communicate with and/or pursue the man after the break up. The chance of return is diminished if the woman who was dumped begins to pursue the man who dumped her because this will decrease his respect for her, his value of her and make her even more undesirable to him.
Who’s hurting more: In this case, I believe the dumpee is hurting more than the dumper.
Woman Dumps Man For No Apparent Reason
Much like the scenario above, it happens. And it can happen for all the same reasons listed above. And again, attempting to boil it down to one single reason is a fruitless effort.
Additionally, much like the scenario above, the likelihood of a possible return here from the woman is high. But if the man starts blowing up the woman’s phone or filling up her Facebook wall with pleas and attempts, his chances are then greatly decreased. However, if he waits a considerable amount of time (one to three months) and THEN makes a soft approach, a woman has a much higher likelihood of giving the man a second chance and viewing him in a different light. Because as I mentioned above, it’s the man’s level of interest that will tell the tale.
Who’s hurting more: In this case, I believe the dumpee is hurting more than the dumper.
The Level of Interest Tells The Tale
As much as there are a number of variables and clear dynamics involved in the dumper versus dumpee break up debate, I believe it’s the level of interest of the man involved that truly tells the tale.
It’s clear to see from the scenarios listed above that most times, it’s the dumpee that’s hurting worse. And this is simply because rejection, in and of itself, just plain hurts the human soul, man or woman. However, it’s the level of interest of the man that truly affects the end result.
And this is where it pays for men to pursue, not women – and I’ll explain why.
If a woman has a high level of interest in a man: She will begin to pursue him after the break up.
If a man has a high level of interest in a woman: He will begin to pursue the woman after the break up.
The Big Difference Is The Outcome
If a woman has a high level of interest in a man and pursues him after the break up: She willfully puts herself at a very high risk of being used by the man (for sex) – and being dumped by him - a second time.
If a man pursues a woman after a break up, regardless of who dumped who: He actually has a very high chance of winning her over, repairing things and entering into a long term relationship with her; he proves himself to the woman. It sounds strange, but I’ve seen it - time and time again. When you ask couples in long term relationships about how they met, many times you hear the woman say something to the effect of:
“When I first met him, I didn’t like him. But he pursued me – he grew on me and he won me over. I just couldn’t resist.”
Honestly, I think the relationships that have a greater chance of longevity are the ones where the woman rebuffed the man initially – and the man worked to prove himself to the woman.
As you can see, the same exact behavior can result in two very different outcomes.
This is because each gender, male versus female, views this behavior quite differently. Women view pursuit by men as the natural order of things – man leads, woman submits. It’s very primal.
However, when those natural gender roles are reversed – woman leads, man submits - the outcome can be very different.
And just a note of warning, ladies: If a man insists on YOU pursuing HIM, he’s insecure and chances are, won’t make a good boyfriend, lover or husband because of his insecurities and his inability to man up. If he can’t man up in the beginning, he’ll never man up during the relationship – when you need him most. You will always feel like it’s YOU working to hold things together while he sits, does nothing, takes, sucks you dry and completely exhausts you.
Men view pursuit from women as unnatural and desperate, while women view pursuit from men as the natural order of things, the way Mother Nature intended it, and see it as chivalrous, romantic and a sign of genuine interest.
Let’s face it, there’s nothing sexier than a man going to the ends of the earth to win a woman over. That’s the definition of Prince Charming. It’s reminiscent of John Cusack’s famous boom box scene in the 1989 movie, “Say Anything.”
However, when a woman does this, it’s not sexy at all. It signals emotional instability to the man, it angers and frustrates them, and decreases their attraction for the woman - FAST. It’s reminiscent of the “I will not be ignored” scene in the 1987 movie, “Fatal Attraction.”
The Natural Order Of Things
It’s simply the natural order of things, on a very primal level, for the man to lead and the woman to submit. So when a woman reverses those natural gender roles and turns things topsy-turvy, the end result is very different.
So in conclusion, it could just be that within the dumper versus dumpee psychological scenario – it’s not really who’s hurting more versus who’s hurting less that determines the ultimate outcome.
It’s the INTEREST level of the man – and the REACTIONS of the woman – that appear to be the single most important factor in determining the final outcome.
My advice to men: If you truly think the woman may be the one for you, after giving things considerable room to breathe, pursue her with all you’ve got. Set your ego and your pride aside, do not be discouraged, and pull out all the punches (romance) and go for it. Win her over.
My advice to women: Don’t overreact, keep your emotions in check and don’t over analyze the situation and heighten your insecurities. Give things considerable room to breathe and wait to see if the man’s genuinely interested. If he is, HE will pursue YOU.
If you want the relationship to work out in the end: Men, bring your “A-Game” to the plate. And ladies, keep your emotions “in check.”
“Do not allow negative experiences to make you bitter. They should make you wiser, and with that wisdom you shall find joy.” ~ Leon Brown
139 Comments:
Great article Mirror, thanks!
True story.
Last night I was at a networking event talking to a 34 year old married man.
He dumped both his ex long term girlfriend, and his future wife to be. Which did he marry?
He dumped his ex girlfriend but she came back to him after three days.
He dumped his wife to be (being proposing) and she didn't come back.
Why did you end up with the wife and not propose to the ex girlfriend, I asked?
There's something about the thrill of the chase. He said.
There you go ladies. Nothing more needs saying eh. So even if you get dumped, it sometimes means nothing much, if you do absolutely zero, as Mirror says.
I know two other stories like this too, where woman kept No Contact and they married the guy who dumped them as he came back ;-) all is not lost after all. Good luck girls in making your dreams come true.
Typo on my comment! That was supposed to read BEFORE PROPOSING not (being proposing)
@Anonymous,
And there you have it :-)
What women fail to realize is that MEN LIKE TENSION. Not negative tension, but a bit of tension nonetheless. It speaks to their competitive nature, enjoyment of thrill seeking and their need to "win" things.
When a woman makes everything perfect and easy - honestly, it bores men to death. Things become very predictable and "ho-hum." Men don't like that.
Men actually like proving themselves. They'd never really admit that to a woman they're dating, but it's true. They prove themselves to other men everyday, they prove themselves on the football field, they prove themselves at work and in their careers and they like to prove things to women in the bedroom, too.
Give them what they want girls. Give them a run for their money that they'll never forget ;-)
Men actually like proving themselves. They'd never really admit that to a woman they're dating, but it's true.
Yep, just like us girls don't tell men what we're up to either with our 'teaching them a lesson with our no action strategy'. Not that that's manipulative, it is protecting yourself and seeing how interested the guy really is and him realising his mistake :) So all is good :) Also, it's letting the man feel really great about himself when he HAS won you back over! And guess what, us girls reap the benefits of that!
As men say "Happy wife, happy life" :)
I love aphroditeastrology.com
@MOA
At risk of coming across as bad here I have to be honest and say I have never felt bad about being the dumber in any one of the two long term relationships I've had.
The first she was on a downward slide as I saw it and also propsed at the wrong time. She needed help that I could never give. She became to much to live with unfortunately. She fell into a bad crowd soon after and is only now getting back on her feet.
The second propoed and wanted to me to give up my life, job ad career. I would lose everything live under her restrictions in her very tight family unit. The relationship was also on the down slide for the last year of it. I continued to try but as I reflect now that was down to my determination and willingness to find a way. I amde the right choice her as she is now engaged to someone who feels that what she has is what he needs. This was obviously meant to happen.
I can also say I have never gone back and contacted these two girls. Only once did I do that with the first one as I glad to hear her overcome her problems and has herself found the right man. She has professional help also.
As for proving myself to a woman.....oh hell yes I love that. Both of the ladies above withheld sex for months. I had to prove myself and stay around. That made it more special. When things were going well I worked every day on my career to prove myself as somethign they should be proud of. I could go on. Winning a woman over also I love that its part of doing it right. I am currently pursuing a woman who in my view has slammed the door shut. HOWEVER in reality all it has made me do is renew my determination to prove to her that if she wants to be with me there is no better man.
OH and in the small chance she does that and I manage to be with her.....OH HELL YES WILL SHE GET WHAT SHE WANTS IN EVERY WAY....SHE WILL GET IT GOOD;-) All because she is what I want to fight for :-)
@Peter,
"At risk of coming across as bad here I have to be honest and say I have never felt bad about being the dumber in any one of the two long term relationships I've had."
LOL, no worries, Peter. Each situation is a bit different with small extenuating circumstances and it's hard to predict what individuals will do when faced with a particular situation.
But in your particular situation, I can see how that would be. And the extenuating circumstance here that somewhat changes this is this:
"The first she was on a downward slide. . .She became to much to live with unfortunately." And this, "The relationship was also on the down slide for the last year of it."
Both were on "downward slides" for some time leading up to the break up. And yes, when something is becoming very negative yet the individuals involved stick around (past it's expiration date) - when it's over, most times, it's over.
But again, that depends. I mean, had the downward slides not begun, things may have turned out differently. And by that I mean, had you dumped them when things first started showing signs of going downhill - it's possible things may have turned out differently. But because both parties stuck it out, by the time it was over, it was really over.
And that does happen. I've been there myself.
"I can also say I have never gone back and contacted these two girls."
I think because in both of these situations, things had gotten SO bad . . it was probably a relief for you to actually be away from them, LOL.
"As for proving myself to a woman.....oh hell yes I love that."
See ladies?? Men really do like a challenge and they really do like a bit of healthy tension. They like to work for things and they like to have to sort of struggle to attain them. Again, a bit of healthy tension.
Ever see a group of men, particularly young men with lots of testosterone floating through their veins, LOL . . ever notice that when they're in a group - they wrestle and fight with each other for no damn reason?
It's tension. It's that competitive drive. It's them "proving" themselves to one another. They jostle with each other like that because that's how they unknowingly figure out hierarchy in their group. Who's the strongest? Who's the leader? Who's the biggest? Who's the one not to eff with?
Young men establish that by confronting one another in these small battles where they wrestle one another to the ground until one submits, LOL.
They ENJOY this, ladies. It's not mean, it's fun for them. And subconsciously, they don't even realize what they're doing there - but they're setting "rules" and they're competing with one another for the "top spot" in their group via these small competitions with one another.
It's all very primal, very biological.
And as you can see, our dear Peter here has a very high competitive drive, fierce determination, to "win" this woman he fancies. And he's prepared to stop at nothing to do so.
Take a lesson, ladies, from our dear Peter here :-)
You know, I have to share this one, too. I just remembered this after responding to Peter, but it's cute so I'll share it.
I have a neighbor girl, she's 15, she's Italian and she's a knockout - a dark beauty. Well her mother was working late one Saturday night and I was hearing all kinds of commotion outside. After a half hour or so, I decided to investigate what it was.
Turns out she was having a party, LOL. There were about 12 young 15 year old boys there and about the same number of young 15 year old girls. And what I heard was the young boys, all lined up around the top of a giant trampoline out in the backyard, acting up, as young boys do, LOL.
So I thought, "This is interesting, I'm going to stick around a minute and see what's up."
I was in my kitchen and I had shut off the lights so they wouldn't see me looking out the window (yea, I'm that neighbor lady, LOL) and I cracked the window so I could hear. I just KNEW something cute was about to happen.
So I'm standing there listening and I'm watching these boys all jostle with one another on this trampoline, taking each other down on it. None of the girls were outside at this time, BTW.
Next thing ya' know, one of them says, "Hey, what are the girls doing?" The rest are like, "I dunno, why won't they come out here, let's get them out here."
So the one says, "I know. Let's all take off our shirts and call them outside." So that's exactly what they do, LOL. I'm standing there, giggling, watching all these 15 year old boys strip off their shirts. (It was freezing cold out too, by the way, snow on the ground ;-)
So now, all these 15 year old boys are half naked on this trampoline and they resume to jostling and wrestling with one another on it. And the one says, "Okay, hey - call the girls out now." You see, they wanted the girls to see their masculinity (shirts off, wrestling with one another). They wanted to "prove" themselves in front of all the girls ;-)
So the one starts screaming for the girls to come out - and I hear the girls coming to the door. They're like, "What's going on out there? What do they want?"
The door flies open and out come all these girls, cellphones lit up and in hand - on the ready - and they see all these young guys half naked in the freezing cold, wrestling with one another on this damn trampoline.
And then I hear, "Oh gesus. What they hell is going on out here and why are you guys half naked? What are you guys doing!!"
They take pictures of the boys, they all shake their heads and laugh - and then each and every one of the girls goes right back into the house, LOL.
Cont . . .
Now, it's silent outside. None of the boys are wrestling with one another anymore, realizing their little prank didn't work.
So what do they do next to get the girls attention?
I hear, "Hey, I know. Let's scare them. Let's all leave and not tell them we're leaving or where we're going."
LOL! And off they go. A dozen young men climb down off the trampoline and leave through the back gate. I hear them laughing as they're walking away. "LOL, they'll be wondering where we're at and why we left. Hehe."
They were pretty proud of themselves, LOL.
Next thing ya' know . . the girls noticed there was now no commotion outside - and every single girl in that house comes out of the house, into the freezing cold snow - looking for these boys.
LOL!!!! I was inside, hiding in the dark, laughing my ass off.
This young group of men, only 15 years old and knowing nothing about women or dating or anything like that - ALL INSTINCTUALLY KNEW THAT THE WAY TO GET THE GIRLS ATTENTION WAS TO DISAPPEAR ON THEM.
Those girls were out back searching high and low for this group of boys. . . and I went to the front door and saw all of the boys marching up the front street - entering the front of the house while all those girls were out back looking for them.
It was hysterical to watch all of this instinctual, primal, pre-programmed behavior take place amongst a group of youngsters that didn't even realize what they had just done there, LOL.
Those guys pulled the ole' "disappearing act" on those girls to get their attention - and it worked ;-)
Very interesting story Mirror.
Posting movie clips like the one from "say anything" is a real recipe for disaster in my opinion. Real life is not like the movies and these days a guy coming back to a girl is usually going to mean receiving a casual text message... "Hey :)" when she least expects it. It is then up to the girl to decide how to respond and rebuild the relationship, or figure out what he really wants. I have never heard of guys doing anything we have seen in the movies from any of my friends, and none of that has ever happened to me. So lets not get our expectations all twisted and keep it realistic. Your knight in shining armor is most likely wearing a black suit, scrambling to his office with a venti starbucks in his hand and his iPhone in the other. Now, when they want to propose, I will admit, I have seen them get creative :)
@Anna,
LOL, I didn't post the "Say Anything" video as an example of what to do. I simply said, "it's reminiscent of" that scene...meaning, it made me think of (reminisce) about that scene...as a visual example to display the "Prince Charming" concept.
Of course we all realize that no damn man is going to pull out a boom box from 1987 and start playing Peter Gabriel under your damn window, LOL.
And if, by rare chance, that happens ladies...please be sure to capture the video on your cellphone, LOL ;-)
I think we're all smart enough to realize that Prince Charming is a fairy tale.
And if all it takes for a man to get back into a woman's good graces is a lame "Hey" text and then dump the burden of building the relationship on the woman's shoulders...we're all in trouble, ladies LOL.
@ Anna_S
I disagree, there are a very small percentage of men out there just like the movie clip Mirror put up. It's a small percentage, but I myself have been in a relationship with a man where I felt I was the leading actress in my own classic romantic movie and he was the lead actor.
Now, I mucked it up, I realise that now and especially since seeing all the do's and don't in black and white that Mirror puts up on this site, but I have been in one and these guys do exist.
Also, my ex ex, he was like the guy in the movie clip too as he came running back to me telling me he loved me (for the first time) and I was the mother of his children. There was so much tension in him it was incredible. Sadly I didn't love him so that went no where....but it can happen!
@AnonWoman
I think we're all smart enough to realize that Prince Charming is a fairy tale.
Maybe, but you can get flickers of a Prince Charming in some men, for sure as I've been there. And I hope one day every woman reading your website gets a glimmer of it too....after reading all your laws of the universe in the dating world, Mirror.
I hope one day to be posting my own story, after lessons I've learned and reading your blog. God please, please!!!! LOL.
@AnonWoman
Ladies (and gents ;)
One thing I've learnt is....if someone wants to break up with you...at the end of the conversastion, you have to let them go.
What I've done in the past, is hold on tight. It doesn't get you anywhere and it makes the other unhappy.
Also, by holding on, it's what the other person often wants to hear....so by you agreeing to a break up, may even make them want you more. It's reverse psychology. Ugh, really? So they will be thinking, doesn't s/he love me anymore? Why aren't they freaking out begging to stay? It's kinda nice to let them go. I wish I'd done it with the last one rather than clinging on for dear life and losing all my self respect etc.
You live, you learn, you letter better ways for next time (if it ever happens again!).
So take the break if they want one. Then when they've figured things out. The chances are higher that they will come back to you.
I figure, if I do happen to get dumped again, I'm going to follow every rule on this site to a tee combined with my own knowledge, and then I wanna come back on this site one day and say 'hey girls, he came back and put a ring on it.'
@Snow
@MOA
"Of course we all realize that no damn man is going to pull out a boom box from 1987 and start playing Peter Gabriel under your damn window, LOL."
Nooooooo but one man(mentionng no names LOL)might do is get drunk and play(and IIRC sing badly LOL) Westlife songs under the window of a some very lovely irish female students bedroom. While offering them some of his kebab(which was what the lovely lady enjoyed at the time).
So I Suppose its not a far step from there to Peter Gabriel but I nver thought of his songs at the time HAHA
@Peter,
That's awesome - and very cute :-)
I agree that there are still men out there who will go to the end's of the earth to win a woman over. I've seen it myself. Although no one has ever sang songs under my window. (But one man did climb on the roof of a cabin that me and my girlfriend were staying in with her parents at a state park many years ago, LOL).
I see nothing wrong with a woman expecting some sort of chivalrous, romantic act from a man. Romance DOES still exist and women DO still love it.
As far as expecting an EXACT reenactment of the scene above in "Say Anything" - naturally, that's a bit far fetched to expect from a man. But like I said, for a man to make some sort of "over the top" romantic attempt - yea, I believe that can and does still happen.
I laughed out loud when you said "while offering them some of his kebab" - for a minute there, I thought you were referencing your "dinker," LOL. Offering her "your package" ;-)
Maybe next time, try the Peter Gabriel tune and see what happens LOL.
That's cute. And see ladies . . . romance and over the top declarations can still be expected from men. And every woman's definition of Prince Charming is different.
For instance, my definition of Prince Charming isn't a metrosexual, corporate type running through the city to his office. I prefer a more rugged, blue collar type of man. But that's because I come from a steel town where there are lots of steel mills, rugged, rough men and outdoorsy types that like to hunt and fish, etc. While another woman's Price Charming might be an IT techie type guy that spends most of his day buried in a dark room looking at HTML computer code all day. And another's might be a man in uniform such as a police officer, military man, or a fireman.
But regardless of what your ideal vision of your Prince Charming looks like - there's someone out there for everyone.
I truly do believe that :-)
@MOA
I love that kind of stuff and when it works as a guy its amazing haha.
"Maybe next time, try the Peter Gabriel tune and see what happens LOL"
I think when it comes to Irish ladies and her reation over that weekend Wesitlife is dead on ;-) haha shame I lost contact with her :-(
"I laughed out loud when you said "while offering them some of his kebab" - for a minute there, I thought you were referencing your "dinker," LOL. Offering her "your package" ;-)"
;-)
As I recall it was was large mixed meat kebab with all the sauces and I carried it all the way from the shop. The Irish guys who introduced me to the girls were with me too, They were too busy trying to defrost the beer they put in the freezer to get "a bit chilled" haha. Those Irish guys were so funny I did expplain it was a freezer not a fridge haha
@MOA
A lot of guys won't do romantic gestures like that because the word "weird" is thrown around too often now. Plus there is the fact that many guys do feel that better looking guys would get away with it but less "good looking guys" would crash. I think guys don't want to get any of those words or the dreaded "Nice" guy.
I'm not a nice guy I do aim to be a gentleman, as I was brought up those two are different things. Not to be confused. I have my own code and how things should be done and you now where that all came from.
@Peter,
"A lot of guys won't do romantic gestures like that because the word "weird" is thrown around too often now."
Well, I think some of the problem is that nowadays, women settle for barely nothing from a man but his mere presence, LOL. So if a woman is used to be treated like crap by a guy and then a nice guy comes along and makes some grand, romantic, gentlemanly gesture - right away the girls like, "He must be weird."
And she thinks that because she's used to being treated like crap - so a nice gesture from a man is suddenly considered "weird" because she's simply not used to it and doesn't believe men are still like that.
It's a sign that a woman is settling when dating. Settling for crap treatment from a guy.
Instead of recognizing that this is the way men should be treating a woman. It's kinda sad.
"I think guys don't want to get any of those words or the dreaded "Nice" guy."
Very sad that being a "nice" guy is somehow considered "weird" by many women nowadays. Also sad that there are women out there who feel men don't need to show this type of respect to a woman nowadays.
They got it all wrong :-(
@Peter,
"A lot of guys won't do romantic gestures like that because the word "weird" is thrown around too often now."
I should mention that if a woman thinks a romantic gesture is "weird" - it's indicative of a problem with HER - not the MAN.
How any woman can think a show of respect like that is somehow "weird" is beyond me.
@MOA
Take my present situation. I made it very clear how she was to be treated from the start. I told her to expect to be treated properly in the old fashioned way. I don't do all this modern dating tuff guys do now. My downfall maybe? I was always firm but polite. She was always responsive AT FIRST them BANG out of the blue I give her one compliment and she gets weired out. As I explained to you I dont think You're stunning" is a weird to say nor when questioned is "yes I mean it you stopped me dead at that second I just saw you". You know her reaction, thats why guys don't do it. Girls weird out over this kind of stuff.
Just to be clear that was no attempt to be a suck up or a nice guy to compliment her to death.As I do when I'm training clients I have worked with so very beautiful woman( who have a based on pure looks) but not like her. It was genuine IMPACT on me from her. Why would a lady be unhappy that she made a man top in his tracks?
@Peter,
"Why would a lady be unhappy that she made a man top in his tracks?"
Again, it indicative of an issue with HER, not YOU. She's obviously used to being treated like shit and BS'd a lot by men. So when she receives a compliment like that (instead of usual "macho" ignorance that many men dish out these days to play on a woman's insecurities and gain the upper hand with her), her guard flies up because it's so DIFFERENT than what she's used to experiencing.
And because it's so different to her, she becomes suspicious of it.
Like I said, it's indicative of a problem with HER. And apparently, she's been selling herself short with men and this has effed up her head.
She thinks men are SUPPOSED to treat women like shit - so when a man does the exact opposite and pays her a nice compliment - her guard flies up and she's like, "WTF is this?"
It's kinda sad really.
And it's also indicative of insecurities within her. Because apparently, she thinks that compliment was bullshit. And the only reasons a woman would think a compliment like that is bullshit is because:
1) Men treat her like shit and she's settled for it and this has made her believe that men are supposed to be ignorant to women.
2) A lot of men have bullshit her in the past.
3) She insecure and she doesn't believe she could actually be "stunning" to a man. So she thinks that compliment was a lie and a bunch of bullshit.
Again, very sad. And indicative of lots of self image problems within her and also indicative of the fact that she's apparently used to be treated ignorantly.
So when a man is actually nice to her, her guard flies up and she thinks it's a lie.
@Peter,
"A lot of guys won't do romantic gestures like that because the word "weird" is thrown around too often now."
Peter - how old you are? Like early 20s?
A man in LOVE will do ANYTHING. ANYTHING! I've seen it, men in their 30s, seen it with my own eyes.
Weird? Balderdash.
@Anonymous jan202013 2:19pm
"Peter - how old you are? Like early 20s?"
So because I'm young my experience less valid? I don't think so.
"A man in LOVE will do ANYTHING. ANYTHING! I've seen it, men in their 30s, seen it with my own eyes."
I am military in background raised and served with men older than me. Older than me by 5,10, 15 and in some cases 30 years older than myself to learn from. I work in a masculine environment I have spoken, listened too and observed so many different guys of a variety of ages. I have been in this background for the past 10 years. Yes you have it with your own eyes but I have too. I have also seen what I have described with my own eyes. Also repeated by guys OLDER than me in my social circle.
Yes wierd is something that is coming up in increased amounts. One word I don't like in terms of dating and relationships.
I don't want an argument on this fine blog, but don't talk down to me due to my age. Don't discountmy view with only something you have seen with yourown eyes as if that is the final say on the issue.
Regards
Peter
Peter
"yes I mean it you stopped me dead at that second I just saw you".
Depends when you say it. If it's on date three, that's nice. Date one, no, too soon?
My ex said some beautiful things to me. But I knew he was genuine as we had a conversation that he thinks it is out of order men calling women their darlings, etc, unless the woman is actually his official darling. My ex said girls and guys have to be careful with words, as they make people fall in love with you or, they show you as disingenuine. So when he said some beautiful things to me a couple of weeks down the line....that made me the happiest woman in the world :)
@Peter,
No worries. I think the commenter here was actually agreeing with you in that, it's wrong that "A lot of guys won't do romantic gestures like that because the word "weird" is thrown around too often now."
And it is wrong and it's wrong for women to think it's weird. And I think she asked your age because - she felt only young, naive folks that don't know crap about dating and love and the dynamics of relationships would call a romantic gesture "weird."
I don't think she thinks you're that way - I think that she thinks that it's wrong that the people around you, possibly of a younger generation, feel that way.
We all know that you're not that way, Peter :-)
But it is sad to hear that many younger folks these days think romance is "weird" - men and women both :-(
And for that matter, it's equally sad that grown men and women of ANY AGE may possibly feel that way and think romance is "weird" - that it's dead.
Good lord . . what's happening to this world?
We're all headed to hell in a hand basket, LOL!
@Anonymous jan 20,2013, 2:51
I dont go in for any of that date 3 type rules. I understand thepoint you're making but I prefer to think in terms of the amount of compliments a guy makes and how often.
If he makes A LOT of compliments I associate that with sucking up from nice boys. Its about balance in my view. You can also tell a fake comment or compliment from a guy out for one thing IMO. There are patterns to thoe types of behaviour in different types of guy.
I also now work at present in a environment where I have worked with fogure competitors, models and actresses. Also some rich ladies who want to keep fit. I see beuatiful ladies al the time. Now let me make myself very clear I don't devalue beauty but I do have to say I have learnt more to "see past" it. I am in a position to get to know these ladies for the people they are.
So when one day I meet with this lady and see a genuine tunning lady who knocs me flat out. It just comes out, this is not like me at all but it was very much the truth. It was just as out of the blue for me too. Her reaction was more related to why a guy would call HER stunning. Not the actual compliment itelf.
Mirror,
If you were dumped by man b/c of superficial reasons due you believe he would ever try to pursue you again???? I am really unsure if I should even want this guy to pursue me but I have to be honest and say that my ego was bruised by the situation. Although I am not perfect, I was definitely was good to him. I just really feel like his reason for stopping the relationship may be a lot deeper than what he is sharing.
As the dumpee, i haven't been reaching out and it's been a couple of weeks nor has he contacted me. Should i send a happy birthday text?
Hi Mirror...I'm going to call myself "Jaylo" ;)
Your articles and tips are great, and I would love to have your thoughts on this:
So you have seen guys coming back even after saying "Never More", saying "not even friends no more", saying "no chance"?
It happened to me 2 months ago, when him and his girl broke up their 2 years relationship. (yes, too bad he was in a relationship. I know!!
We were in touch for 4 years and 8 months (yes, I met him way before he started this relationship with this woman). We are far apart, but he became part of me. He knows I love him. I tried to stop all our online contacts we had, and his texts during his relationship, but he never let me.
During his relationship period, he would not stop contacting me. I tried several times to back up, cause I truly didn't want that situation for myself. When they broke up recently and for the third time breaking up, he called me to ask if I had sent her anything, and obviously i did NOT. (We believe she got into his computer, and then she found pictures of other women, which he claims it's from past relationships, women he got to know in the past years, including my pictures. He had around 50 pics of myself he had saved and she found all of them)
We were not even talking for 30 days when he called me saying she found out, but she told him some body sent her a CD with the pics (lie).
So when he called me to tell me what happened, he was REALLY concerned about losing here (yes, I am an idiot here. I was suffering a lot cause I loved him), he was ok on the phone. Not rude or anything with me, and he even mentioned about stopping everything with us (conversations), and if we were to be, that it should be right! but 2 weeks later when I called to check on everything, HE SAID WE COULD NOT BE IN TOUCH ANYMORE, EVEN IF HE COULD NOT SAVE HIS RELATIONSHIP, WHICH APPARENTLY IS OVER NOW. I guess this time he lost her. It was 2 months ago, and that was our LAST CALL. He said no more FOREVER. No matter what. Not even our friendship. It can't be. (maybe he was desperate of the situation at that moment??? )
They had a very turbulent relationship. Fights all the time. I don't think he was a MAN ready to settle and he even mentioned to me before she was extremely insecure and jealous (no need because she was BEAUTIFUL). We are all in our mid 30th.
Do you think there is a possibility for him to look for me again? I AM NOT going after him at all.
I miss him a lot. I was NOT STRONG ENOUGH to stop all that between us, although we were not speaking for 30 days when all this happened, and now he decided to turn his back on me.
Is it possible for him to contact me again? We didn't have a fight! He just thought that was the best for him. SELFISH!
He is got stuff in his house to remind him of myself, including clothing, and some equipments.
I wish I could go back in time, and stop our (Long distance) contacts while he was with her. I learned a lesson the hard way.
What do you think? Was he desperate for losing her? That's why he said that to me?
You are great for taking your time to reply to all these people. You are awesome.
Hope to hear some advice from you as well, Mirror!
Jaylo
@Anonymous Jan. 20, 6:;58PM,
Yes, as long as you don't contact him and you stay gone, I believe he will eventually circle back around to see what's going on.
@Anonymous Jan. 20, 8:16PM,
No, do not contact him, do not send a birthday wish. Did you read the article, honey, LOL? Did you watch the "I won't be ignored" video clip?
When someone dumps you, you don't reward them by wishing them a happy birthday. Additionally, when a woman pursues a man like that, it diminishes his attraction for her.
When someone dumps you, you initiate no contact (no text, no emails, no phone calls, no letters and no responses, period), and you show them consequences:
http://www.aphroditeastrology.com/2012/11/how-to-say-no-dating-life-consequence.html
@Jaylo,
Well . . some of this you will want to hear, but regretfully, some of it you won't :-(
"she found pictures of other women, which he claims it's from past relationships, women he got to know in the past years, including my pictures."
Sadly, I do not think you were the only woman he was conducting himself that way with - there were more, I'm quite sure of it. And it's very possible that another woman whom he may have had at his place near that computer DID, indeed, burn this CD - to then turn around and burn HIM because she felt jilted by him. He may have been cheating.
"He said no more FOREVER. No matter what. Not even our friendship."
That's because he realized that it's wrong to continue to speak to other women that you were involved with previously to some extent when you're in a committed relationship.
"They had a very turbulent relationship. Fights all the time. I don't think he was a MAN ready to settle"
You're right - and I think he may have been cheating on her here.
"he even mentioned to me before she was extremely insecure and jealous"
I'm quite sure he gave her every reason to be insecure and jealous by involving other women in their relationship.
"Do you think there is a possibility for him to look for me again?"
Yes, I do. Particularly if he's a player with loads of women on the side. He'll circle back around to each one when he suffers a "dry" spell.
"He just thought that was the best for him. SELFISH!"
I don't think in this case it was selfishness necessarily. I think it was his guilty conscious telling him he shouldn't be doing what he was doing.
"Was he desperate for losing her?"
Yes, probably. But I think more of it was guilt for his behavior.
I'm sorry, sweetie, but this one sounds VERY shady to me. I'd be very careful with that one :-(
Another great article Ms. Mirror. Thank you.
My own experience as a dumper has been in relationships (or what I thought was a relationship lol); the dumpee has been in dating w/no commitments. And, either way as the dumper or dumpee, I always feel horrible -- for different reasons.
As the dumper in a relationship, there is a whole lot of unhappiness prior to the end (and we all know when we are heading for the end, don't we?) There's a whole lot of work ignoring unhappiness, convincing myself not to look at things, trying to talk to the other person about concerns, trying to make it work, and then struggling through the decision that I know is going to hurt the other person. After the dumping is done, though, I eventually start to feel myself breath again.
As the dumpee in dating, I always spend way too much time afterwards wondering why. And I've thought about this alot lately with my past couple of years of dating mess.
Even when I KNEW the guy was the not the right guy for me, AND he dumped me, I was hurt.
Driving and thinking one day, I noticed a guy walking down the street. He could have been homeless, I didn't know. But I asked myself, "What if this was the guy that you dated and he rejected you?" Would you have the same feelings of isolation, diminished self-worth and hurt?
And to my surprise, the answer was, "yes." Even if it was a guy who I had absolutely nothing in common with, lived totally different types of lifestyles and he could have been a drug addict or alcoholic. If he decided I was not the one for him and dumped me, I'd be hurt.
Then I wondered, if my reaction to rejection is about rejection or if it's about having to admit that I made an error in judgement and the knowledge of the error didn't come until AFTER I gave so much of myself to him.
Just to set this straight, I am not a sleep-around-Sally, but I'm 50 and enjoy sharing intimacy with a man I feel a connection with. And I don't date alot, in 2012 I slept with two men (Virgo and Scorpio).
Anyway, before I decide to sleep with a man, I think I've got a good idea of who they are, etc. After they have dumped me, I realize I got it wrong! And I beat myself up over it, which is part of the isolation and diminished self-worth. But my anguish is not really about their dumping me, rather it's about my mistake: They aren't who I thought they were, and that is such a hard pill for me to swallow.
Cont...
Continued..
Your advice, Ms. Mirror, for no contact is so valuable in many ways.
The time provides both people the space to clear the dust that flies around when we are in the midst of something not working and trying to sort out why.
And, if women have found your articles during this time, they will learn, as I have, about why we can't be "too (f'n) nice," why we need to give men the time to go through the steps of, "retrospection and manning-up," and as Peter has reiterated, letting the man, "love the chase."
I still haven't physically talked to Virgo -- he wants to, but I'm still not ready -- it's been 2 weeks since he's been back, and I'm still not trusting his intentions. Virgo is still texting me all the time (I am mirroring), and yesterday I talked to a guy friend about the situation. I'm still not sure what I want to do, so to quote my friend, "Women think too much," I'm going to stop thinking about it and just continue to weed.
I'm still hoping for Scorpio, but with this time, I'm wondering why.
Oh, and Peter, can I ask something/make a comment? I thought I read in one of your posts that the woman (Gemini) you are crazy about is from work. Am I right?
If so, her rejection may have nothing to do with you, it may be because of the situation.
I have a steadfast rule to not date any man from work. I go to work to work. It is my bread and butter, and was the means for me to take care of my children and now the means to take care of myself -- I would/will not risk that with ANY MAN. So, when I feel a man crosses a line at work, I feel I have to set things straight.
I usually let guys know when the advances first start by telling them, "I don't date men from work. I'm a great 'sister.' I'll support you and cheer you on when you succeed and I'll give you a good slap when you need it to."
It usually works great.
During the past few months though, I have had to set 2 guys straight who crossed a line: one married guy that text me something inappropriate at night, and when I called him on it, he tried to make it MY problem (and I'm happy to say the little snivelly cheating coward stays away from me now - lol), and the second last week who had time to think about something he said after I used Ms. Mirror's NC rule (that ended fine -- so far).
So, anyway, Peter, as Ms. Mirror has said, at times, women need to by hypervigilant about protecting themselves for reasons that have nothing to do with the men currently interested in them, but rather for self-preservation.
I hope it works out for you.
Thank you so much for everything!!!!!! I really am happy to have found your website. I am learning a lot and will continue to follow your advice!!!!!
January 20th @ 6:58pm
From Jaylo!
By the way, I'm your fan now!
Love your thoughts and advices to people!
JL
Jaylo again:
Did you notice that the decision of no contact with me anymore took a while?
"So when he first called me to tell me what happened, he was REALLY concerned about losing HER, he was ok on the phone with me. Not rude or anything, and he even mentioned about stopping everything with us (conversations), and IF WERE TO BE, THAT IT SHOULD BE RIGHT (here I got some hope).
He mentioned on that first call about deletig my number, BUT if he could NOT save the relanioship, my number would be back to his PHONE.
Two weeks later when I called to check on everything, He had changed his mind like completely.
Mirror, what do you see here?
I know I must be careful with this person, but OMG I can't swallow what he did to me. I'm pretty sure they are not together anymore at all.
Jaylo
hi Mirror,
Where is the "I won't be ignored" video clip you refer to please? I'd love to watch it.
@Anonymous, Jan. 21, 4:15PM,
It's the second video in this article . .
Gosh I just watched the second video!!!! It's terrible the way she pursued him!!! I get your point loud and clear....let men be men!!!
@Gemini50,
Very good insights into rejection and where the ill feelings stem from. You're clearly doing some very positive introspection and it is my belief that you are growing from all of this by leaps and bounds, in a spiritual sense.
You're blossoming, becoming enlightened ;-)
And I'd like to add, regarding rejection and the feelings that come with it - male or female - it's my belief that the real culprit responsible for those ill feelings that surface. . .stems from our insecurities as human beings.
Because let's face it, being insecure about yourself in some manner - we all have it. It's part of the human condition. The thing is, some folks conceal their insecurities very well. And that's when you have to learn to spot the "symptoms" of it instead. Others wear their insecurities on their sleeve.
But regardless, we all have them and they're always there - whether you think about them or reflect on them all the time or not. But one of the times that YOU CAN BE SURE you're insecurities will surface - is when someone rejects you.
This is why rejection affects EVERYONE, male or female. Because we're all insecure about something. We can ignore, we can hide it - hell, sometimes we don't even know they're there, that they exist, until someone points them out to us or someone rejects us. Then, all of a sudden - BAM. You feel like shit about yourself for some reason.
When the truth is, you felt like shit about yourself all along, LOLOLOLOL ;-)
Not you personally, but people in general. People in general have something, somewhere, that they feel like shit about. But the thing is, when someone rejects you - there it is. It rears it's ugly head and it demands attention.
And that kick starts the process of self doubt. Did I do something? What did I do, what was it? Was it something I said? Something I wore? Something I wrote?
And your brain just starts running down the list, ticking things off that you secretly dislike about yourself. "I bet it was when I said this. I say stupid shit sometimes." Or, "I wore green that day and I look like shit in green." Or, "I asked that question that night and I shouldn't have done that. Sometimes I ask too many questions."
And then throw someone into the mix that says, "Women thing too much" and all of a sudden, you're telling yourself, "Yea, I think too much" and you agree, LOL. Add that to the list ;-)
I think you see what I mean though. And Peter, that goes for you, too. We all experience it. We all feel insecure regarding something about ourselves. But normally, we don't dwell on those insecurities - until someone rejects us or points them out to us.
Then there's this giant spotlight on all these insecurities that suddenly start creeping out of the woodwork.
So just know that you're not alone and Peter, nor are you. We all question ourselves and we all look to ourselves to find fault regularly.
But if you're a good person, with a kind heart and your intentions are pure - all is well ;-)
@Jaylo,
Well, "He mentioned on that first call about deletig my number, BUT if he could NOT save the relanioship, my number would be back to his PHONE."
Geez, I hate to say this, but that tells me that he's keeping you as a "Plan B" - he's choosing her first, but if that doesn't work out, you'll do :-( I'm sorry.
"Two weeks later when I called to check on everything, He had changed his mind like completely."
That's because she left. So he kept you - again, Plan B :-(
"Mirror, what do you see here?"
A player and a cheat :-(
"OMG I can't swallow what he did to me."
You shouldn't swallow it. You should initiate "no contact" immediately:
http://www.aphroditeastrology.com/2012/11/dating-when-why-how-use-no-contact-rule.html
@Gemini50
"I thought I read in one of your posts that the woman (Gemini) you are crazy about is from work. Am I right?"
We work in the same industry and she has a similar job to be. However its not at the same place. I have made a point of keeping her apart frommy work. She is something different and I don't want the two mixing.
@Anonymous Jan. 21, 5:32PM,
Yes, that's never the impression you want to give to a man about yourself, LOL ;-)
@Gemini50
I agree with you! I hear you loud and clear! I am so with you on this journey of self discovery too! You sound like you're doing brilliantly! Good for you! Nice you have options still in the frame too as well, juggling, not making rash decisions but learning for yourself as you go along from these men - be they turn out to be real love or just an experiment for now or many more weeks/months/years to come. I'm really happy for you. You sound like you're in a great place.
Relationships (of all kinds, friends, lovers, partners, work etc) are the meaning of life. People. Being happy inside and content we are doing the right thing, so that no one can take away our happiness for too long and make us sink as low as we (well, I) have sunk before, from getting dumped by a man who took me for granted and hurt me real bad s I didn't play hard to get when he came up for air after a wonderful start.
I know life has it's ups and downs, that won't change, but some women seem to manage brushing off those men (and people) in their lives who are no good for them....I want to become that woman in my romantic relationships again after the last terrible downfall. Back to the woman I was two years ago, but way more improved to not get run over again (lessen the chances) significantly).
I finally feel, I CAN DO it. I'm getting there.
Whilst I get asked out at the moment a little bit, it's not by men I fancy, but it's OK....I have trust soon one will turn up that I do, and it's mutual.
This community of women is freaking awesome and Mirror's input. I can't believe, after being online since the late 90s, how good this site is. Seriously. Talk about USP. I ain't seen another site like this anyway.
@AnonWoman aka Virgo
Dear MOA,
My ex dumped me for another gal. I went no contact for about 5 weeks. He contacted me just to check how I'm doing and to apologize. However, he is still with the new girl. When we talked on phone, I was cool at first but then I gave him a hard time in the end because when he first dumped me I was in so much shock I didn't get to have my say (I wish I had kept my emotions in check, sigh). Anyway, he came over and we talked and we parted ways on good terms. We did not hook up. I could tell he was expecting me to make the move but I did not. Hoorah for me. This happened about a month ago. Since then, we have been in VERY limited contact. He texted me about two weeks ago asking me out to dinner. Btw, he lives about 2 hours away so it's not easy to meet him. After a day, I replied OK. Anyway, that dinner date got canceled and then he asked if I'm free the following weekend (this coming weekend). Via text, I didn't give him a yes and changed the subject. Anyway, if he contacts me this week asking me out to dinner, what should I do? Do I go NC again? Do I just meet him and keep it super short?
This is a phenomenal article.
@Anonymous Jan. 22, 12:13PM,
I wouldn't respond. I'd hang way back and see if he's genuinely interested or if he's just attempting to score with you.
And with men, it pays to hang back. If forces them to go through the thought process necessary to realize they were an ass. If a man is able to have any type of contact with a woman after a break up, limited or otherwise, he doesn't miss her. He doesn't develop "regret" and he doesn't go through the thought process that an "end" brings about.
Read this article and watch the video there. Pay close attention to the lyrics. It's a man talking about how he tried to forget a woman, but when he realized it was the "end" - all of a sudden, some "madness" began to overtake him.
And the "madness" he's referring to are actually "feelings" LOL ;-)
http://www.aphroditeastrology.com/2012/11/dating-when-why-how-use-no-contact-rule.html
@MOA for the other ladies here to comment on
It relates to the points made by MOA in this post regarding "Man agressively spooks the woman away".
Is the following enough to "spook" any of you or "wierd you out" as the lady I am pursuing called it.
-A "hey how are you?hope all is well" texr every 3 to 4 days
-At least one phone call per week time allowing
-I notified you of my week schedule for the weeks you wanted to meet so you knew when we could fit each other in
-I took an active interest in your hobiies, life and friends
-I mirrored your emotional style when you did open up
- I set firm bundaries on time wasting when I thought you were messing me around
- Gonest in my intentions of first geeting to know you and moving from there
-Genuinely thoughtful of you
-Sent you flowers with a friendly message
-Explained honestly that the reason I was talking to you was for you and not for sex, games or fast relationship etc
-If I was impressed by anything you did I would express it honestly( OK i ONLY ACTUALLY COMPLIMENTED HER ON ONE OCCASSION)
-If you worked in the same industry as me and I gave you clients who were not the type of clients I train but were your type of clients, so I email you ONCE to set up a meeting with a female friend of mine who I want you to train
-I by accident included you on a works contact list and text you twice with some good work details
This is the way I pursued this lady. We had a very good rapport at first and met up. The this dropped of and her mood changed rapidly. I DID NOT chnage anythign I was doing during this time.
If a man who was completely interested in you pursued you like that would it weird you out? If it did what would have to happen for you to change that view of him?
Just interested to see where and how my apporach may be improved on what I did. Thought I wuld throw that out for everyone to realy pick at.
@ Ms. Mirror,
I have been thinking about your response all day. Although I really believed my rejection angst was due to “being wrong,” and I thought you missed what I was saying, you were right.
I continued to think all day why I thought my being wrong was the problem… but it didn’t make sense. I am wrong all the time at work and in day to day life (I’m right a lot as well ;)).
I always told my kids it’s ok to make mistakes as long as we learn from them and I encourage my staff to not be afraid to make mistakes as long as they are well intended actions, and, again, we learn from them.
But being wrong about a person that I get close to emotionally and physically is another story. And here is where you are right. This is probably more information than anyone needs to know, but maybe it can be of help to someone else. When I was a child, I was abused by an adult I loved and trusted, and I was not cared for as one should be by their parents. This abuse killed me inside. I stopped feeling, growing, learning. I saw everything (abused children are super alert to their surroundings) and went through the motions of living, but I didn’t know how to incorporate real life into my closed world because I was so damaged emotionally.
From the outside, I looked normal, but the inside I was dead; no one knew, no one cared, and I told no one. I carried it with me until I had children of my own, was in an emotionally abusive marriage, felt like I was going crazy and finally reached for help (hiding in a bathroom with a telephone book praying to find a woman therapist who would respond to my message – I remember it like yesterday, although it was 30 yrs ago.)
Thus, you were right, Ms. Mirror. Once I trust and get close to a man, and he turns out to not be the person he portrayed himself to be, turns into a man who has no consideration for me, my “being wrong,” equates to a threat to who I am and my life as a growing, living, life experiencing human being. Thus are the feelings of isolation (wanting to protect myself), self-doubt (why can’t I see who the bad guys are), and hurt (FUUUUCK!).
The good news here is that I have figured this trail out. And knowing where the pain comes from, helps. It’s akin to knowing where your bone is broken in your arm in order to know where to apply the cast to make your limb stronger.
Pretty heavy stuff, I know. But it’s interesting – and if it’s interesting only to me, then I apologize to everyone else… just ignore my stuff lol.
And if you do find it interesting, know that I am a healthy, happy, living life 50-yr old woman who did the work to recover from a painful past that does not have a hold on me.
One of my personal sayings is, “You can’t control your future if you are blaming people in your past.” I refuse to be a victim, I won’t give others that kind of power over my life – so no worries if anyone is thinking, “oh my god, this woman is suffering,” I am not. I am living and learning, and I am so thankful I found Ms. Mirror’s blog and thankful for Ms. Mirror sharing her insight.
Ok, a couple other things:
- F that person who complained about grammar. WTF?!? Unless they are your publisher, they stepped way out of line. F them!
- And to Peter: Glad your Gemini-lady is not working in the same place as you. I’m a Gemini, and you know what gets me to take a second look? A guy who knows who he is, and is steadfast w/his actions matching his words. Live your life happy and respectful of yourself and others and do your thing. Don’t try to sell yourself to her; let her watch and see who you are through her own observations. I really want you to win this one! :)
@ Peter,
Regarding your Jan 22, 7:25 post:
What is the timeframe that this all occurred? Over weeks (how many) or months (how many)? There is alot of activity here... need to know timeframe. :)
@MOA. THANK YOU so much for responding! I think you are amazing. Thank you for taking the time to replying to all our comments <3
@Gemini50,
I think you'll find this interesting - and it's going to be the topic of an upcoming post. I'm currently reading a book on body language and human behavior regarding how to spot a liar.
And when I read this:
"why can’t I see who the bad guys are"
It made me think of an interesting point I just digested from this book last night. And that point was somewhat fascinating to me, it goes against what folks would normally think. But the book states that research has revealed that:
"those who don't trust others, are actually less likely of identifying when they're being lied to or someone that's not trustworthy."
And you might want to reflect on this a bit, I'm still digesting it myself - but even though you think you're trusting of others, like Virgo and Scorp, because you felt you trusted them and didn't see it coming . . the reality could be that you're NOT trusting of others deep down inside (due to your past and trust being broken there) and, as a result, you're bullshit barometer is being hindered by deeply hidden suspicions of others. (Peter, you might be interested in this, too, regarding the woman you're pursuing right now.)
And the theory concludes that the reason those who secretly lack trust in others are unable to spot a liar is due to the fact that they're subconsciously suspicious of - EVERYONE. But they start second-guessing themselves into the opposite, "No, you can trust people, you need to trust people."
So the brain is compensating for this deep lack of trust by throwing you into the opposite logic subconciously of "you have to learn to trust people."
And all of this can be going on without the individual even realizing it.
I'm sorry that you had to go through that. But I do believe you're experiencing a significant period of self-growth and self-discovery right now. And I think everything happens for a reason and that somehow, that reason will lead us down our true path. And I think you're in a period right now where, you've just located the entrance to your path :-)
You're on the right track . . just keep moving forward and before you know it, you won't need a flashlight to see the way anymore :-)
@MOA and the ladies here
The whole period was long over MONTHS I cant remember the exact date but it was well into last year and ending just over a week ago.
I will make it clearer for you:
These were MUTUAL and occured withing hours of our first conversation we were clear with each other
-Explained honestly that the reason I was talking to you was for you and not for sex, games or fast relationship etc
- Gonest in my intentions of first getting to know you and moving from there
-Explained honestly that the reason I was talking to you was for you and not for sex, games or fast relationship etc
This conduct towards her in conversation
over MONTHS
-I took an active interest in your hobiies, life and friends
-I mirrored your emotional style when you did open up
-A "hey how are you?hope all is well" texr every 3 to 4 days
-At least one phone call per week time allowing as we both don't like text
-I notified you of my week schedule for the weeks you wanted to meet so you knew when we could fit each other in. I did this at least on one occassion and only one.
- I set firm bundaries on time wasting when I thought you were messing me around
-If I was impressed by anything you did I would express it honestly( OK i ONLY ACTUALLY COMPLIMENTED HER ON ONE OCCASSION)
This was about 2 weeks ago but it was a one time incident
-If you worked in the same industry as me and I gave you clients who were not the type of clients I train but were your type of clients, so I email you ONCE to set up a meeting with a female friend of mine who I want you to train
-I by accident included you on a works contact list and text you twice with some good work details
Sorry for the detail here but I want to get this looked at to prevent mistakes.
@MOA and the ladies
just to add yes this was oer months but the change in her was rapid. My point is I never changed my approach to her and at first she enjoyed it. Then there was a rapid change in emotion from her and she became paraniod of me. Evrything I did "weirded her out" this began around christmas.
Hello.... I've been recently dumped. Honestly, I feel bad!!! I spent all last week thinking about my relationship wondering about things I could have done wrong. I've just been in a slump!!!! How to get over this one? Yesterday, I went to the store and there were a bunch of valentine's day stuff all over the place. I just need help getting over this, Mirror!!!
@Anonymous,
Regretfully, I can't really answer that one as everyone has different methods of coping.
The best thing is to surround yourself with supportive folks, begin dating, and do things that make you happy :-)
@Peter
Hi I've been reading comments here and there, and I may have missed some important points, but based on your list - 2 things stand out that would spook me out.
1) "Explained honestly that the reason I was talking to you was for you and not for sex, games, or fast relationship."
I don't know the context of how/when that was said, but if a man said that to me - I would automatically assume he meant the opposite, and put up my guard.
The fact that this conversation took place at all leads me to think either she's naturally suspicious of all men's intentions (based on previous experience), or you did something specifically to make her question you were a player...so you had to step up and prove your intentions were sincere.
Seems like there's a level of mistrust in the relationship if that was tossed out in a conversation.
Perhaps the change wasn't rapid to her, but something that was simmering underneath the surface for a while?
2) "If I was impressed by anything you did I would express it honestly"
I could be WAY off (again, I don't know enough about you and your relationship with her) - but I get a vibe you lowered your value to her somehow (she's a Gemini, right? they need lots of mental stimulation and variety).
I had one guy I was dating (non-exclusive) who would tell me how much he admired my talents, and how courageous I was to work for myself. It was only a couple of comments here and there, and initially it was flattering and I enjoyed it... but it actually turned me off a little, and I started distancing myself.
In the early stages, I feel it's my role to admire and respect the man, look up to him, and make sure he's selecting me out of all the girls he could be with, while I'm also evaluating him.
But if I sense a guy is putting me up on a pedestal or he's too consistently unchallenging (not enough tension), it lowers his value in my eyes.
I like it when a guy is picky, and I can tell he has standards. One of my Virgo exes (in the early dating stages) once complimented me over dinner how different I was from all the girls he met and dated. He backed it up with examples - and I glowed all night.
The thing about being complimented on appearances is most women don't really believe it, or it feels awkward to accept the compliment. I don't really need a guy to tell me I'm beautiful/cute/gorgeous; I should be able to tell from the way he looks at me, or touches me, which is much more believable.
There's a fine line between pursuing and being a sweet gentleman, but also making sure you come across as strong, masculine, and a challenge (while not acting like a jerk).
When a guy becomes my bf, then that's a whole different dynamic. But in the courting phase - I want it to be more of a stimulating, playful game of "I select you" and "you select me."
I'm not a Gemini, but I do have a lot of air in my chart (Libra), so perhaps there may be some similarities with this lady. Or as I think mirror mentioned earlier, she could simply be so used to poor treatment that she feels weirded out when a good man shows up.
I hope everything does work out for the two of you. Hang in there, Peter! All of us ladies are here to cheer you on. :-)
- Vivian
@Vivian
Perfect reply thats what I was looking for :-)
In relation to point number 1 that conversation came around because before we met up we both wanted to know what the other was looking for. Since she had already expressed to me this was for long term relationship. As I said that was mutual outlining of where we may have intended to go.
I myself believe in being honest and clear with a lady I'm involved which for me means making sure she knows I want to do things properly. I don't like casual sex, one night stands or playing games.
What concerned me was that as I said she very rapidly went toward being paranoid. This was well after that opening conversation. She went rapidly paranoid. She was questioning everything I did we as before she we were doing well together.
As for compliment I never saw it coming. It was an out of the blue compliment she made an impact on me. At present I work in a job whre I do work with some very beautiful women. However I don't find them beautiful. I don't devalue the beauty in anyway I just know them as people. On this one occassion though this lady made me see it and I was knocked back. I complimented her on looks once. Over the whole period. She may not believe it but in that reaction she is unique.
Apart from that I never really complimented her on anything else. I never attempted to. I am not a fan of lots of compliments I prefer to keep in down(NOT EASY TO IMPRESS). However she did do just that.
The whole reason I chased her was precisely as you say a man should have standards and I guess if I were to put it that way she met mine big time. I never told her that though. I find it hard getting a genuine impact from women most of the time but when I do I chase.
@ Ms. Mirror,
I hope your foresight is correct. However, thinking about my broken arm analogy today, I realized something very important was missing. The error could be due to my ignorance of broken bones -- I've never had one, and don't want one :) -- but it also could be my subconscious awareness.
In my analogy, I identify the break and explain a cast will make the arm stronger, but I do not speak of setting the bone back in place where it belongs or healing as if the break never occurred -- and I wonder if this is my soul's cardinal wisdom that some wounds can't, and never will, heal completely.
I wonder, is it similar to a physical disability? Always there... we learn to live with it, overcome its negative effects with practice and learned skills and, hopefully, succeed in spite of it.
The explanation of overcompensating trust where it has not yet been earned makes sense. In my case, when a child learns the world is a dangerous place, it makes sense when they are an adult, able to make their own choices and no longer in the unsafe environment, that they would (subconsciously or not) choose to see the world differently, and want to believe they are with people they trust to not intentionally harm them.
Again, in my case, I don't think it is an active pursuit of "righting a wrong," but rather an acute awareness of evil. And with any glimpse of good I immediately believe the person is ALL good (overcompensation). And I want to make this clear, this behavior is not a thought-out process... it is one thing that leads me to another and another, without any caution flags or road signs.
I had a "trust and weeding out" discussion with my therapist last year. He shared with me a belief of one of his friends, a fellow therapist, Mulvey, lived by. Mulvey's mantra was, "The whole world is bullshit, and everyone is an asshole."
To me, this was harsh, and I couldn't see the world through those eyes -- now I wonder if the reason I could not is because it is too close of a reminder to my childhood and the pain I have worked so hard to distance myself from. Because I do not want the people who took so much from me as a child to have any part of my life as an adult, there lies the overcompensation of trust (albeit subconsciously).
I see my task ahead is to learn to identify dangers before I stumble. Your "flashlight" made me laugh -- hell, I feel where I'm going, I need a f'n cave-man club. lol
@Peter
My ex was just like you at the beginning from what you say. All sounds good! I can only recommend one thing.
-A "hey how are you?hope all is well" texr every 3 to 4 days
Best to say something more personal. Like...if she started a new job and was surrounded by sporty girls and as she was sporty herself she thought she'd be OK you could text her 'hey, hope the sporty girls are treating my girl ok?'
Everything else you listed, I liked!
To be honest though, you just gotta be yourself Peter or advice here and there on what works for one girl (Vivian) doesn't work for another (me) so just be yourself mate and listen to you GUT and read up on psychology.
@Peter
Hi, Peter, I'm a regular visitor of MOA's website. I know that this site or community grew from women discussing about men, in general, who have been jerks... That is why I must say you really impress with your pure intention to chase a lady whom you really like as a person, and also how you have chased her for over a year which is a really long time.
TBH, as long as women continue to be educated on their self worth and how to deal with men, I believe that there will come a time when jerks (I'm sorry for a lack of a better word, please advise if there's any lol) will have to man up or stand to lose good women to good guys like you, Peter.
In fact, what I've been looking out for in a partner has been changing ever since I experienced the dating world ;-)
Unfortunately, in your scenario, I think the lady does not feel anything or you, or you are not what she is looking for as a partner. Initially, she accepted your goodwill on a friendly basis. Although, she may have sensed that you might be interested in her, but she ignored it at first, probably because she liked your friendship, and had hoped that things will continue to stay that way. However, it began to become too obvious that you are chasing her, crossing the friendship boundary, and she is now using the excuse that you are acting weird, so that you won't get the wrong idea. I think she doesn't want to lead you on.
Girls can be pretty stubborn and firm with who they want as their partner.
Given that you have consistently chased her for over a year, I know that by NC, she will DEFINITELY miss your presence. I think all girls do, when the guys that are chasing them stop. I don't know what will happen after that, but I'm guessing that she doesn't have that many guys chasing after her with the pure heart that you have... She will really feel the pinch at losing the good guy who truly liked and admired her AS A PERSON.
But unfortunately, what I can't promise is that she will suddenly realise that she wants to be in a relationship with you. I can't promise that she will like you in that way...
Perhaps, if you'd like, continue to chase her as you have done for a while more. But when you decide enough is enough, send her a sweet, polite and respectful text to tell her you won't be bothering her as much anymore. I would think that if after that, you become silent for about two weeks, so that she would miss you, you can send her a short communication, just to let her know you're thinking of her, but no pressure, it would be very sweet... and if she really missed and regretted letting you go, that short communication (I would think a text) would make her feelings stronger.
In the meantime, you should stay happy, have fun, and continue to improve yourself and work towards your dreams. That can also be another way of chasing her ;-)
What do you guys think?
Scorpio, 21
@Anonymous jan 23, 2013 7:09pm
Part of the problem was that as she changed she told me to keep texts to "how you doing?". This is one thing I'm curious about in relation to the "man spooks women" points made in this post. First we were fine and texts were like you describe then she told me not to do that.
I'm just working through to see if there was anything I did to spook her and may not have picked up was doing it.
Hey Mirror. Remember me. Its Mariana. Hey girl :). You gonna be mad at me girl. I did no contact with me boo and he contacted me after I waited for like a month. Then he aint contact me again and I couldnt wait so I text him hi. thats all i said. He told me he want to meet up wit me to tell me what happen. Im so hype but i dont know what to do now. You think i mess up? What you think I should do when I see him? I want to have sex wit him but I wont. Please tell me what you think I sould do.
@ Peter,
I agree with Vivian's response, as well as Anonymous' (to be yourself).
One thing is bothering me, though. And that is that you are hearing her comments from others.
It sounds like you had communication going on between the two of you, and if so, if she had a problem or was feeling uneasy about anything you were doing, she should have talked to you about it -- not others.
Although Ms Mirror is awesome at giving us insight into other's behaviors, I can never guess accurately why people do things... In this case, I'd like to think it's immaturity rather than callousness. If it's the latter, Peter, you don't need that in your life.
oh yeah i already said yes to meet with him. Girl i was hype, lol.
mariana
@Peter
>To be honest though, you just gotta be yourself Peter or advice here and there on what works for one girl (Vivian) doesn't work for another (me) so just be yourself mate and listen to you GUT and read up on psychology.
I completely agree with this 100%. To be honest, I can't see what you've done wrong here, although I can see what Vivian meant as well. At the end of the day, you can only do what you can - the other end of it has to come from her (whether it's her insecurities that she needs to overcome, whatever).
Alana
@Mariana,
Well, "Girl i was hype, lol." Men can read that like a book. They can sense a woman's eagerness and excitement. And they generally use that to get their way with them. So be very mindful of that.
Because you see, when the woman initiates the communication, the man's ego makes him register that as, "BINGO, she wants me."
As a result, he WILL circle around - to sleep with her again.
And nine times out of ten, he'll disappear on her - AGAIN.
Which is why I don't advise women to break the no contact. A man really needs to prove himself and it's his level of interest that proves whether or not he's got good intentions versus whether or not he's simply attempting to get laid.
And by you contacting him, you can guarantee he thinks he's getting laid.
So now you have a conundrum of sorts. Now you don't know if:
1) His intentions are true
2) If he's genuinely interested or if he's simply seeking sex
3) If he's going to disappear all over a second time and place you right back to square one, only this time, you've got to suffer the pain all over again. And if that ends up being the case, there will be no one to blame but yourself, unfortunately. For walking right into this.
So just be mindful of all of that. Because the message that you're signaling to him here is that:
1) You miss him
2) You're desperate to see him
3) You're eager and willing
4) He's stronger than you emotionally. You gave in here, not him.
Basically - that he's got you. He's got the power here. And you can bet he's going to wield that power by attempting to manipulate you emotionally, by telling you exactly what you want to hear, sleeping with you, and disappearing all over again.
Don't let this become a repeat. Because you still don't know if this man is genuinely interested or not. He's not pursuing you, you're pursuing him. And he hasn't proven himself to you yet. He thinks this is going to be easy pickins'.
So you should be very careful here.
@Peter,
That's weird isn't it, why she said that. Maybe she likes another man too. Maybe she is mentally not in the right place, now or ever. Could be that or something else. Maybe she thinks you are not the one and changed her mind.... I dunno....keep searching for your answer in your heart...
Mariana, Mirror,
Perhaps Mariana should cancel the date on the day of the date, to get her power back? Then she can see what he does after that?
Scorpio21 and Peter,
"Perhaps, if you'd like, continue to chase her as you have done for a while more. But when you decide enough is enough, send her a sweet, polite and respectful text to tell her you won't be bothering her as much anymore. I would think that if after that, you become silent for about two weeks, so that she would miss you, you can send her a short communication, just to let her know you're thinking of her, but no pressure, it would be very sweet... and if she really missed and regretted letting you go, that short communication (I would think a text) would make her feelings stronger."
No, that is miscommunication saying he's leaving her to then, two weeks later say he is back. No....doesn't make sense....makes him come across as weak and not a man of his word. Maybe you haven't thought of it like that?
I have to say, given Peter seems to be in love with this woman and his feelings have developed over one year, giving shotgun advice is not wise so I am reluctant to do that. I wouldn't want to be the one to advise Peter on what to do...in case I am wrong, and he makes a mistake on the back of my advice.
I think perhaps leave that to Mirror, just because, she knows his story more.
And Peter himself, his INSTINCT knows exactly what to do, dig deep Peter and work it out as you have all the answers ;)
Yes, if I were Mariana...I would not be going on that date. I'm quite sure this guys got "plans" for exactly how this is supposed to go here - and we all know that he plans for this to be easy and for things to go his way, LOL ;-)
I think I am confused about the no contact. does this apply only if you had sex with the guy??? When is it really effective?
@Anonymous,
No contact is used for many reasons, some of which are listed here:
http://www.aphroditeastrology.com/2012/11/dating-when-why-how-use-no-contact-rule.html
And it's to be used when a guy isn't treating you right. It's not used to initiate a game with a man - it's only to be used when the MAN threw the first stone - when he took you for granted, broke up with you, disappeared, etc.
And it doesn't have anything to do with sex.
It's how a woman holds her own when dating - and doesn't get run over and left for dead in a hit and run.
Any time a man begins to treat you poorly - as a woman, you should ALWAYS pull back. Never reward poor treatment with attention and affection. Poor treatment demands consequences:
http://www.aphroditeastrology.com/2012/11/how-to-say-no-dating-life-consequence.html
And one of those consequences is - if he treats you poorly - he doesn't get your attention. He doesn't get a response from you and you don't make yourself available to him - unless or until he treats you right.
When a woman makes herself too available to a man, it tends to invite poor treatment from them - and they begin to take you for granted.
Mirror, how often would you expect to see a man in the beginning, and what if he seems to want to see you a lot in the beginning and then it seems to cool down - feels like he's making excuses. Have I done something wrong? I don't know him well enough to tell or to know if his excuses are real, or as they seem just a polite way of keeping distance. I don't want to be treated like a fool, I'm v unsure.
@Anonymous,
I think in the beginning, once a week or once every other week is a nice pace.
Because what happens is, when it's more than that, things move too quick, sex happens too quick - and then as quickly as things started - are about as quickly as they will die down.
Things that burn hot also burn out fast. Particularly with men, which is why a slow pace is necessary - so he takes the time to see you as a woman - instead of an object.
If a man is permitted to plow his way through things, unfortunately, that's exactly what he'll do most times :-(
Hi mirror..how about once a week after three or four months of dating? At whAt point is it ever okay to see each a little more? My ex called me this week. He called just to see how I was done. I have to admit that my life is good right now. No real complaints! However, I still miss him. I would never tell him this but I often wonder what was his real reason for breaking up. my question is when would you reconcile with an ex? By the way, we never had sex!
@Anonymous,
"how about once a week after three or four months of dating?"
Seems perfectly acceptable to me.
"At what point is it ever okay to see each a little more?"
When he wants to make more time for you and see you more. (Man leads, woman submits)
"my question is when would you reconcile with an ex?"
If/when he returned expressing and showing a desire to do so in his actions, proving himself. (And only if that happens to be what I want, too.)
All -
Came across a blog post the other day which some of you might be interested in. It's particularly interesting as the male blogger thinks that a woman should only be taking an ex back if he's able to articulate WHY he'd like to come back (see comments).
http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2013/01/when-your-ex-contacts-you.html
@Alana,
I agree with what he's saying there, because the bigger message that he's attempting to convey when referencing that a man should articulate WHY he'd like to come back - points to a man "proving" himself to the woman.
That's basically what he's saying. Only I would add that WORDS simply just won't do - ACTION must accompany those words. And when a man's ACTIONS align with his WORDS - that's a man that's proving himself and his intentions towards a woman.
You don't let flaky bullshitters back in the door simply because they say "I miss you." And once a man breaks up with you, in my opinion, you don't let ANY man back in the door without him first putting effort (work) into attaining the woman and the relationship back and proving to you that he's serious about it - through REPEATED attempts at reconciliation.
Because if a man can simply walk right back into your life and your heart by doing absolutely nothing but saying "I'm sorry" - you can bet your bottom dollar, he'll be taking you for granted once again in about three to four weeks - and nothing will have changed.
After a breakup, it's YOU that's important. Not the other individual. And if YOU don't look out for YOUR own heart . . . then who will?
And when someone disappoints you or betrays you, your guard NEEDS to go up with them. It's self-preservation. If you do not do that (male or female) - you set yourself up for "victimization."
So your choice gets boiled down to two simple things:
1) You can either look out for yourself by entering self-preservation mode.
3) Or you can set yourself up to enter "victimization" mode.
And when you look at it in those terms, it's clear that self-preservation is the much wiser option.
Thank you for the post Alana. Mirror, I am so happy I found your website!!! Very sound advice.!!!'
@MOA
I see the blogger and your take on the situation - it's true that most men will usually try to break up again after returning.
I totally buy into the belief that men understand actions more than words - which is why I'm surprised that the blogger thinks that the man should be able to articulate why he wants to come back! Even if they genuinely want to come back (demonstrated through actions), I wouldn't think that most men could articulate the reasons why beyond "I miss you and want to make it work" - and especially not to the level of detail that the blogger is suggesting. So I guess "words" is another part of the vetting hurdles to place before a returning guy...
-Alana
@Alana,
Honestly, with a man who has disappeared or called a relationship off . . I think the more hurdles placed before him, the better (safer) for the woman involved.
And I'm assuming the the male blogger in that piece there is assuming that many men are mature and able to articulate their feelings. And there are men who are capable of that, don't get me wrong - mature men - emotionally mature men are capable of that and they do exist.
But when dealing with immature men that are undecided and a bit wishy-washy in nature and behavior - no - you're not going to get very clear, concise communication that stems from the heart from those kinda guys, LOL.
Which is why talk like that should always be accompanied by actions (repeated actions, not just one time attempts) that are in line with what the man is saying.
Then and only then, when words align with actions to produce a very clear picture of the man's intent - is a man (or woman) to be given the benefit of the doubt ;-)
@MOA
>And I'm assuming the the male blogger in that piece there is assuming that many men are mature and able to articulate their feelings. And there are men who are capable of that, don't get me wrong - mature men - emotionally mature men are capable of that and they do exist.
How do you even begin a conversation like that? "Why are you coming back"? (Awkward?) "Why the change of heart"?
I mean, it's even more awkward when it's not a formal relationship and it's casual dating - and the guy drifts in and out/disappears/reappears... He might feel like he shouldn't have to answer to someone with whom he's not (yet?) in a committed relationship. (Say, my situation with Guy as an example)
Or you think it's a matter of whether or not he respects the girl in the first place?
-Alana
@Alana,
"How do you even begin a conversation like that?"
Well, you don't. The man should explain himself and begin that conversation. And again, that's only an emotionally mature man that will do that. An emotionally mature man will understand that this needs to be done and he will be prepared to do that - you won't have to ask.
You can't expect this from an immature man though and attempting to force him to do so, most likely will result in him running again.
"and the guy drifts in and out / disappears / reappears"
This is an emotionally immature man who is undecided.
"He might feel like he shouldn't have to answer to someone with whom he's not (yet?) in a committed relationship."
Exactly. Which is why he needs to "prove" himself via his actions if he's unable to articulate his intentions clearly via words.
"Or you think it's a matter of whether or not he respects the girl in the first place?"
I think it depends on the maturity level of the man you're dealing with. Again, emotionally mature men understand the need for open communication followed through with action. A man like that will be prepared to explain himself without the woman requesting it.
An emotionally immature man will behave much differently. He will not be a good communicator and he may be unlikely to prove himself to a woman. That will depend on his level of interest as to whether or not he pursues and proves himself.
Emotionally immature men play games, tend to be insecure, are not good communicators and to be honest, don't make good boyfriends, husbands or lovers.
You can't expect good things from a bad man :-(
But every once in a while, when the right woman comes along, an emotionally mature man will benefit from the union by growing and getting in touch with his feelings - and maturing.
I've seen that happen, but it really depends on just how much the guy likes the girl. If it's enough - there are times when a "bad" man can mature into a good man - all from the love of a woman :-)
But realize, that's the minority, not the majority of times.
Insightful... Thanks!
I have a senario I would like Ms Mirror to enlighten me on. I met a guy 7 months ago online.
We live approx 8 hrs away from each other. He traveled to see me twice withing a 3 month time period. The first visit was full of passion. The second visit was disrespectful and rude but we completed it. He returned home (note: before his second visit we talked over the phone 3 to 4 times daily,even tangoed and he always seemed so excited to receive the call)once he returned home I called him and his response had diminished he never had in the past let much time lapse before return call now there was a 2 day turn around and when I ask him what the deal was he told me he would "get back to me when he gets back" Whoa, so I decided cool when he called I would be busy. So there was a time lapse of 3 days before I returned his call...He went bullistic and told me I was playing games proceeded to curse me out and told me not to call him any more...so i gave what he ask for I went NC for 6 months at around Christmas out of the blue he made contact using the site that we met on...again NC did not responde than a month later at around Christmas he called I did not answer he left a Merry Christmas message. A week he called me at my job. I answered he began to tell me "I know you still love me as I do you and I care about you and I miss you. You are such a good women and I still care about you its your turn to come see me. Im sorry for the things I said I was upset about some things you said to me. I spoke with friends and family about it and they all are telling how silly I was for doing and saying some of things I did. And that they didnt realize he cared so much. I responded that I forgive you but I would rather be a friend at this point...He replied that's fine and we can see what happens...Now I haven't heard anymore since that day. Again I am in no NC mode....Do you think he is sincere? I remember what you teach words with no actions, so im inclined to believe its game....What should I do?
@Mirror
"But every once in a while, when the right woman comes along, an emotionally mature man will benefit from the union by growing and getting in touch with his feelings - and maturing.
I've seen that happen, but it really depends on just how much the guy likes the girl. If it's enough - there are times when a "bad" man can mature into a good man - all from the love of a woman :-)"
Mirror, did you mean emotionally IMMATURE man rather than mature?
@X,
Yes, I must've been typing too fast. I meant for it to read "an emotionally immature man will benefit from the union by growing and getting in touch with his feelings - and maturing."
@Anonymous Feb. 3, 7:22PM,
"Do you think he is sincere?"
Regretfully, no. I do not believe for one minute that a man that has seen a woman only twice (and was disrespectful and rude the second time) is in love.
Lust yes. Infatuation, maybe. Love - no way.
If he can get sex for free out of the situation, that's what he'll attempt to do, saying anything he needs to say to make it happen - and then he'll disappear or throw a fit again as an excuse to disappear, as he did the first time around.
He said:
"he'll get back to me when he gets back"
That's indicative of an arrogant man and it's the attitude that a player takes with women - as if he's doing the woman a favor by speaking to her. It's also indicative that he's of the mind that he doesn't have to answer to a woman.
Doesn't exactly sound like great boyfriend or lover material to me. It actually sounds more like an over-sexed, arrogant, playboy type of man.
Another red flag that's indicative of a player and not a gentlemen is this:
". . .its your turn to come see me."
No way. A man that is genuinely interested and that's a gentlemen realizes that it's the man place to pursue the woman and to go to her - not the other way around.
And when he realized that you weren't going to be an easy victim here - it appears that he simply moved on.
You dodged a bullet here and he did you a favor by moving on. A man like this will use you, disrespect you, disappear on you, feel entitled, rarely lift a finger for you, will exhaust you and drive you crazy.
I wouldn't lift a finger for him nor would I ever speak to him again if it were me. He's shown you plenty already about his character as a man - and none of it is anything good or positive.
Thank you so much for your help. I didnt know where he was coming from and I actually thought for a hot min maybe he was serious. I just dont know why when a man has no interest do they even bother to contact a woman again. I know when Im not interested I do not bother them anymore,ever.
@Anonymous,
I never said he wasn't interested. He's interested - in sex - and something casual.
"I know when Im not interested I do not bother them anymore,ever."
True, however, we're not men, we're women, LOL. Two very different creatures. You can't project the way a woman feels or reacts onto a man.
Male ego and sex drive are something that women can not understand and are both things that drive men's behavior ;-)
ok so it's me again now even though I took your advice I ended things with my pisces this will be my third time ending it in which he refused our ending twice and still considered to act like crap afterwards so now that I have ended it with him a third time I did not hear from him and yes I ended it via text message but I did receive a phonecall at my grandmothers house in which they called out my name and hung up and only 3 people i know have that number and yes he is one of them anyhoo I don't know what to think my brain is fried at this point because he scrambled it into tiny little egg bits but please tell me what might be the outcome of this and how I should handle it
@Beautiful Crab,
When he contacts you, you need to use this:
http://www.aphroditeastrology.com/2012/11/dating-when-why-how-use-no-contact-rule.html
Don't answer and don't respond for at least 30 days.
so he called my G-MA house again at 2am and my mom picked up the phone dag I why didn't I give her a heads up anyway he is arguing with me about how he just started this new job and he is trying to get his crap together and how I need to have self control and wait... can you believe this S#!%.
Very insightful! I love your site!
Thank you!
I'n not having much success with my computer...i don't know if you're recieving my post...so here it goes again...
Hello Mirror, i have been lurking in here and reading. i love your site! Thank you for all the insight...it has helped me be stronger! and continue my NC
Before i even read this site i implemented the NC. I have been seeing this guy for 5 months, the first few months in the beginning of our relationship, he pursued me non stop...even though he knew that i was in another committed relationship, it was a lots of text messages, phone every single day...we eventually started kind of seeing each other, going on dates 3 x week, he told me that i was everything that he wanted in a woman and he would bombard me with phone calls, and always initiated dates. remember i am still in my other committed relationship but at the same time i also found out that my partner was going through some sexual orientation issues, this was hard for me to go through...so i found myself liking and spending more time with this pursuer and i started falling for this other guy who was pursuing me because we just clicked...but at the same time i had no reason to leave my other relationship because regardless of my partner issues, we have children together and he's a good man and has 80% of the things i want in a man. anyways because i was already in a committed relationship even though i was going on these dates with this other guy...the next day after the date i would feel guilty and try to break it off with him and tell him to not contact me again, but he continued to and frankly i become emotionally attached to him, anyways at times he had asked me to be exclusive with him but i never responded to it because it meant that i needed to break up my current relationship or continue to see him on the side "cheat". I kept on breaking up and getting back together...he always initiated it, anyways about 2 weeks ago we got close, we had oral sex and communication on his part had become less, actually even prior to this. anyway i had been doing a lot of thinking and realised that i wanted to be him, but when i asked him to go out for a drink ( which was the first time i ever initiated) he was like yes but i have practice and can meet you after that. anyways the next day i texted and i cancelled the date and wanted to talk on the phone instead...he couldn't talk and said he would call me back and has not ever gotten back to me till this day, no text either. I feel so disrespected, rejected and hurt. i wonder if he thought i was going to break up with him again and thought to himself that he would make my life easy by just cutting me off? or is he seeing somebody else? i'm wondering if he was really genuine in the first place? i have not attempted to initiate contact either it's going onto to 2 weeks no contact. what are your thought? sorry for the super long comment
My question is: what if you were dumped but have been responding to the occasional mixed signal texts. Do you tell him you are going no contact or do you just stop responding and go no contact without saying anything? He has really been messing with my head. He will text and I respond and then in the middle of a conversaiton he just doesn't respond or answer my last text.
@Anonymous,
No, never play your cards like that and never explain yourself. Just take action.
@Anonymous Feb. 9, 5:26PM,
Well, he might have just given this lots of thought and reached the conclusion - he wants a woman that he can have to himself. It's not fair to ask someone to tolerate and accept the fact that you're technically with another man, honey :-(
You cannot ask that of people, it's not fair, everyone deserves to be happy and everyone deserves someone's undivided attention. If you cannot give 100%, you cannot expect 100%. You get what you give in this world.
Chances are, he realized this wasn't going to go anywhere and simply decided he deserves more. And as hard as that may be for you to accept, if you care for him, you have to let him go so he can find that for himself.
You can't have your cake and eat it too sweetie. That's not fair and no one feels good about themselves when they're playing second fiddle to someone else - particularly a man.
You've made your choice and he knows it:
". . .but at the same time i had no reason to leave my other relationship because regardless of my partner issues, we have children together and he's a good man and has 80% of the things i want in a man."
You can't have both.
Ok. So how long do I go without responding? How do I know when to respond again?
@Anonymous,
30 days:
http://www.aphroditeastrology.com/2012/11/dating-when-why-how-use-no-contact-rule.html
And you only respond after he makes repeated attempts and starts to show remorse.
Hello Mirror, it's anon 9, 5:26
Thank you for your response! Your words went straight into my heart! You have such a way about you to get into people's hearts and really make them think...I'm so passionate about the universe and especially matters of the heart and i preach to woman about us holding the key and not selling ourselves short and playing a little hard to get and not be/look desperate~act like a lady!...i love your posts because it everything i know and believe in...i failed to practice what i preach to others! and got caught up...i was already getting attracted to this guy but never wanted to cross the line but after i found out about my partener's issues, it thru me off and made me think that everything we had together has been a lie because of his sexual orientations issues...i was little lost and wanted to find myself. But you're right! i want my cake and eat it too... you give tough love i like it! and it's not fair to either one involved in this and it just create confusion in my own heart...the truth is that this guy who has been chasing me is married...it started off as an innocent thing...i lie from the beginning i knew that if i didn't walk away there will be fire and i will get burn
It's Anon feb 9, 5:26 again...
Continue...bottom line is that he pursued me like crazy...i think he liked the challenge (of having something he could have), he would drop anything he was doing to be with me whenever i was available or not, he texted me all day all night and wanted to spend all his time with me, he dropped his friends for me and couldn't focus at work... and even though i was falling for him, i made him work for it i knew the rules and initiated them all...he always said that i was everything he wants in a woman to the T ...i liked hearing all that crap even though i know not to always take what a man says literally when they say those kind of things. actually before we started getting close we hung out often and he would confide in me, i find that men tend to do that with me, they tell me they darkest side... i like it lol it let me know when to run for my life lol)...he would tell me stories about how he's played thousands of woman in the past, how he would chase them just to boost his own ego, sleep with other woman he believed their men were not doing a good job satisfying them...he felt that if a woman who was committed was cheating that it was a man's faults, and he praised players who were able to get the most beautiful women by ignoring these woman...in those early days i would tell him that he was crazy and would preach about how disgusting and wrong all those things were....i guess he grew on me...he was hooked on me and wanted to leave his wife for me (i honestly don't really believe he would have done it- i think he got to know what i like to hear and i was the type of girl who wasn't attracted to players, i think he customized himself to fit what he knew i would fall for) anyways i've been thinking deep about all these things and wanted to be realistic about it all. i though to myself i should make a choice to either walk away from my current relationship ( because i'm still having trouble wrapping my head around my partner's issues) and take that the chance with him, but my intuition tells me that i would be making the biggest mistake of my life. That's why part of me decided no to contact him either, every time i broke it off because of guilt he came back begging, i guess this time is the longest he has ever gone that i'm having a little hard time with it. my head tells me that it's was an inappropriate relationship regardless of the situation, and that it's the right thing to do, to let it go and move on...but to be honest i got a little attached to him that why it's a little hard now.
Thank you for the time you take to read these emails...it helps me be stronger and encourages me.
@Mirror.
Hi There. Jaylo again.
Remember my story where the guy cut off all contact with me, even "friendship" because of his Break up with the WOMAN of his LIFE he was in a relationship for over two years? We were in touch for while, until their break up. After 2 months of the break up, he is already in a new relationship with a new girl.
What do you tell me about this Rebound?
His ex was days away from moving in with him when they broke up. HE told me he lost the woman of his life, and soooo quickly he is with a new one even on FACEBOOK showing who she is.
REBOUND: Does it work? What are your thoughts?
Thanks
JAYLO
@Jaylo,
Yea, rebounds work - temporarily, LOL.
They're like bandaids. They cover and help heal the wound, but the scar remains even when the bandaid comes off.
I look at rebounds like this:
The person isn't running TOWARDS the new love interest - they're running AWAY from the pain and their problems.
He's not running towards this new girl, he's running AWAY from the old one (from having to deal properly with the emotional pain and loss).
Get it?
That's what's considered "escapism" behavior in psychology - where the individual escapes the situation (runs) instead of dealing with it:
"Escapism is mental diversion by means of entertainment or recreation, as an "escape" from the perceived unpleasant or banal aspects of daily life. It can also be used as a term to define the actions people take to help relieve persisting feelings of depression or general sadness."
But eventually comes the day when you just can't run anymore - when running away and entertaining and distracting yourself - simply isn't working anymore.
And that's when he'll turn around months or a year or two into it and tell the new girl that he's still in love with the ex.
Either that, or he'll make up some other excuse to remove himself from the situation.
@mirror.
That's what I thought. He was in need of some fulfillment from the emptiness. He was used to have his woman around, and then all the sudden: "ALONE".
Let's see what happens. It was just frustating for me having HIM cutting me off for the situation we had, and right away he is with this new girl. I was so shocked, but at the same time, it looks so bad for him running/ rushing into this new one.
None of my business, I know! Just pissed by the pain he caused me....
Thanks again. Love your comments. ALWAYS
@ Mirror
This is such a great article, thank you! I've been reading the articles and comments here for the past several days...and this place has helped keep me sane lately.
I've been dating a guy (long distance) for about five months, and sensed in the past several weeks that he was pulling away with no explanation. We still maintained the same frequency of contact (several times daily) but there were few to no terms of endearment from his end, like 'sweetie' and 'baby,' things he said often until about a month ago. I thought I would wait and see what happens on Valentine's Day -- see what kind of emotion he expresses. Well, it was nothing at all. It was as if the day didn't exist. So I got pretty upset that night, and sent him this (too emotional, I know now) email:
"xxxx, I'm going to try and be delicate about this, but I'm feeling hurt that you in no way acknowledged that today is Valentine's Day. I feel stupid in allowing something like that to affect me, but I've actually cried about it today. It's a girl thing, I suppose...
I guess I thought that this thing we're doing was more than it actually is, maybe like a relationship of some kind, and I am finally realizing today that I was clearly alone in thinking that.
I allowed myself to really like you. I have a hard time trusting men, I tried here, and this is what happens. This is what always happens. Please just leave me alone. I don't wish you bad or anything, but please. I just want to be alone now."
And I haven't contacted him since Valentine's night. He sent me this today:
Dear xxxx,
I am sorry about Valentine's Day. I'm sorry I hurt you by not acknowledging it. But you may have noticed recently that things have been cooling off. That is all on me. I don't know what to say, but that it wasn't in any way your fault. Valentine's Day I didn't want to say anything misleading, but it was wrong of me to just avoid it completely. Maybe if I had been more open we could have ended differently.
You are not alone in thinking of what we had as a relationship. I do too. As a matter of fact, it has been by far the longest and best I've ever had. Please don't think I didn't feel for you what you did for me. And please don't become less trusting of men because of this experience. I hope after a while you can have the same positive feelings about our time together as I do. Goodbye xxxx.
Yours,
xxxx
So...my head is spun by this, I can't sleep tonight. I really care for him a lot, and it hurt so bad to read "goodbye," even though I asked to be left alone. Also, he used the past tense a lot but still signed it "yours." Does it sound like he was already over me, and is relieved that I'm gone? Do you think it sounds like he may reach out to me again, or does the goodbye sound real? I'm on day 5 of no contact, and just need to know so I don't get my hopes up -- or if I should even contact him after 30 days.
Thank you so much for this site and your help.
@Anonymous,
"Does it sound like he was already over me, and is relieved that I'm gone? Do you think it sounds like he may reach out to me again, or does the goodbye sound real? I'm on day 5 of no contact, and just need to know so I don't get my hopes up -- or if I should even contact him after 30 days."
You have a 50/50 chance here of return - IF YOU DO NOT CONTACT HIM. If you do, you're chances lessen and he will be sure to pull even further away.
And in this case, that means you not contacting him after 30 days either (because this was over in his mind before the official breakup - which amounts to him breaking up with you, in which case, you do not pursue him (initiate contact) under any circumstances or he'll pull back on you even more.)
The point is to remain silent, disappear and make him experience the consequences of his decision:
http://www.aphroditeastrology.com/2012/11/how-to-say-no-dating-life-consequence.html
In the meantime, use no contact for YOURSELF, not to win him back. Think of it like this . . why do you even want to be with a man that doesn't want to be with you?
You deserve better than that. You deserve to have a man in your life that cares for you.
Additionally, this is a red flag for me (unless he's incredibly young):
"As a matter of fact, it has been by far the longest and best I've ever had."
If this is a grown man telling you that his longest relationship has only been 5 months - that means he's a man that in love with the idea of being in love (the early "high" of a relationship). It signals he is a serial dater or a "relationship junkie" (a series of short lived relationships that result in him constantly chasing the relationship "high" of the early days).
If he's a grown man, he doesn't sound like one that is seeking a long term commitment or one that appears to even be capable of maintaining one.
So from this day forward - you focus on YOURSELF. You do what's right for YOURSELF. And you find what's best for YOURSELF.
And do your best to detach from him and forget about him.
@ Mirror
(tried to post this already -- but my comment seems to have disappeared)
I'm Anonymous February 19th and just wanted to say thank you for your help. It feels like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders, because I was really beating myself up over what I did to drive him away. It feels nice to let the breakup rest on him, and start to value myself more. That's a new concept to me -- placing value on myself -- and it feels like I'm starting a journey. I get sad over him every so often, but I'm going to follow what you said about no contact, period.
I'm going to use this time to detach from him, instead of using it to get him back. Maybe I won't want him back after 30 days :)
This is a great site, and I think you are doing a tremendous service for women here. I'm referring all my girlfriends in need of good advice!
I really like this article. My boyfriend just broke up with me 8 days ago and this is the first article I read that is making me feel better somehow. I knew something was wrong, we just got back from holiday 25th Feb (this was my gift to him for christmas) and he started acting very, very cold. So by Saturday I get the 'we need to talk.' text, but he made me wait 6 hours to actually get it over with cos he HAD to go with a friend to her tattoo appointment...
Anyway, he said he thinks we should break up because he cannot provide me what I want in a relationship and I am always unhappy. Things have been rather tense with a horrid situation with his ex gf (I feel she still has feelings for him cos she can't be cordial and friendly with me). So I started packing up all of my things. He seemed upset and said don't I even want to talk about it? I said what is there to talk about, you don't want to work it out right? He said it isn't that he doesn't want to, it's just that he isn't well and I'm not well and it doesn't work. So I said well there's nothing more to say and I was leaving and he said are you going to just leave mad like that? I asked if he was still in love with me and he said he didn't know (he told me 4 days earlier that he loved me). I said whatever and I left. I was there about 10-15 minutes. No contact from either one of us since then.
I don't feel tempted to contact him but I keep reading things like this to remind myself that I am doing the right thing for me. Maybe he will see he's a total idiot..who knows.
I wrote the comment above..do you have any thoughts on what to make of that? I am 31, he is 33. We were together 10 months, I broke up with him 1 month into the relationship cos he couldn't really open up to me, I couldn't trust him cos of some baggage I had and I thought he didn't deserve that. We got back together after a month and then we broke up very suddenly 1 November and got back together a week later. The second time was cos he again he is so reserved and I was still having some baggage problems. That has been worked out and now it is everything I wrote above.
Hi Mirror. I received a text from a guy I use to like. He asked how I was doing and shared something personal about his family. I did not respond to his message until hours later. However it has been almost 2 days and has not responded to me. Should I stop all communication all together or just mirror his behavior? I was the dumpee... And I don't know if I want a relationship or even friendship anymore. The cost is too high.
@Anonymous,
You can do anything you like dear, the choice is yours. However, I did share my opinion of the outcome in this situation under the section titled, "Man Dumps Woman For No Apparent Reason."
Mirror, absolutely love your site (as I have just commented). I'm older than most of your other readers/commenters, but the ways of the heart never change. I have to say that if I dump a woman, it's always for a reason, and I tell her the reason-- politely, of course. In only one case did I ever go back, and the relationship ended with me being the dumpee. Before I do a dump, I give the matter a lot of thought, and I never use a dump as a tactic to get compliance with my wants or even with my needs. I had to end a relationship recently. She was the dumpee. She knows why. I will not be going back. However, if she came to me and said, "Look, I thought about what you said, and I was being unreasonable. Can we try again?" I would not consider myself pursued and would welcome her back. But she has to act. I also made that clear. I'll stand by for your thoughts, if any.
@Anonymous Male,
Well hello there - it's nice to see more men stepping out of the shadows here, sharing their opinions and entering into the discussion :-)
My first thought is, good for you that you express your reasons openly and honestly to the woman. Not to bang on younger generations, but honestly, their social skills are lacking when it comes to matter such as that (as you can obviously see by the multitudes of stories shared here of horrendous treatment of one another, male and female both.) I think technology is destroying everyone's social capabilities - but that's for another discussion, LOL.
But kudos to you for being a gentleman and it's also an admirable quality to see that you weigh these decisions (rather than acting compulsively about them) and that you don't use them as a manipulation tactic. Very admirable.
In your particular case, not knowing the details, I assume she's done wrong in some manner. And if you made it clear that she'd have to change her ways for you to reconsider, then in that case, I think it's pretty clear what needs to be done.
But yours is a rather unusual situation these days, because most men simply disappear, offer no explanation whatsoever and do not make it clear that something needs to change and, if so, reconsideration is possible.
Ladies - take note here. This is MATURE communication from a MATURE male, a gentleman. This is proper dating etiquette, the way it SHOULD be done and in his particular circumstance, because of his actions and how he's handled this, I would agree that this woman needs to be the one to step up here.
Normally I would not advise this - but that's because normally, we're not dealing with or talking about gentlemen here, LOL. Normally, we're talking about a disappearing act done in a cruel, disrespectful manner and without thought to consequence. But when dealing with a gentleman that communicates openly, honestly and shows respect - then yes - in that case, you're much safer in proceeding than you are in the cases we're normally tossing about here.
So in closing to you, anonymous male, my thoughts are that you handled this respectfully, clearly communicated and gave it serious consideration before proceeding. As a woman, I would not be as fearful of "putting myself out there" in a vulnerable manner (only to be chewed up and spit out) and proceeding with an approach.
And ladies, that's the difference most times. When dealing with an immature man that's treated you disrespectfully, I do not suggest taking the risk of walking head long into resurfacing to find out "why" he disappeared or pursuing him to find out why.
When dealing with a mature and respectful man, you can behave much differently because your risk becomes much less.
Gentleman versus immature man boy - big difference gals ;-)
Thank you Mirror, for your kind compliments. Sadly, I must agree that the way people treat one another these days is appalling.
Hi Mirror, Great article! I started reading it and felt as if this is my situation, my story and as I read further I felt it was more and more precise..he ..The Man... Aggressively “Spooked” Me Away and the way we broke up was that I disrespected him.
We were acquaintances for many years, I knew him to be a nice sensible person but didn't knew a great deal 'about' him . He pursued me and I fell for him, he was really passionate. But only after one month of dating he asked me to meet at his place which I refused..he said then there is no point because according to him its part of relationship, I argued that its too soon, he said but if we don't meet alone we won't get to know each other, to which I said at this stage we can date a bit more but the argument went in circles, he said lets just call it off then, I said fine. Then after 3-4 hours he called me, blew up my phone and finally when I answered.. he begged,apologised and planned to meet for lunch. Something similar happened again after few weeks, this time we broke up for 2 days (longest 2 days ever), then one more time for 5 days, and then one more time for 9 days( this was after 4 months and he was frustrated). The reason I still did not sleep with him was for the same reason that you mentioned in article:
" If they feel that the pursuit is becoming unnaturally aggressive in some manner…….. she’ll spring into action and run from what she perceives as an oncoming threat."
We got together after 9 days to give each other another chance and I was expecting that he will try to win me over again and then may be we will take a step forward, because I was also attracted to him and wanted to be closer to him and after all it has been 5 months, how much can I resist!! But just a week after we got back together we had this text conversation:
Me: gud mrng :)
Him: gud mrng princess x
Me: was thinking about u..miss me
Him: miss u a lot sweety..luv u x
Me: luv u too
Him: when r v makng luv?
Me: when i m the only one for u
Him: i think v shld stop wastng each others time
Me: i am ashamed of ur intentions ..dont want to hear from u again
Him: not sure what u interpretd what i meant was if u think we will get married before we sleep together then its not happening i want to know that we r physically compatible as well before i make any more commitments. this is last msg frm me, i m better off w/o som1 as stupid as u
Me: excuse!!
I wrote 'excuse' because it did felt like an excuse and his text 'i think v shld stop wasting each others time' felt like an ultimatum!! Moreover, since we just started talking again after 9 days of NC, I did not expect that he will ask me for sex over the text so soon. In fact, according to me, he should not ask for it, it should happen when it will feel right. We should not be planning it! That's a bit odd for me! At this stage (after 5 months) it was appropriate to plan meeting at his place and we could have seen where it leads to.
This time it has been 3 weeks of NC. Needless to say I am very hurt and keep thinking about him 24X7. I loved him and wanted to be in his arms but he was so stupid!! I never left any communication gaps, I told him all this very clearly that his approach is aggressive and was scary. But instead of fixing he argued, I think he may have felt how much more he has to stretch this before I sleep with him, I am not sure if he wanted to test physical compatibility or just wanted to have sex once or multiple times. But I wanted serious commitment from his side.
Continued..
Ever since we went NC, this is first time that I don't have any baits from him so I wonder if he is thinking about me as much as I do, is he hurt too? Will he respect me for my decisions, see that I am not a lose women and will come back? If I put 2 and 2 together, I won't dispute that he did loved me a lot, he was happy with me. He did adored me but he was frustrated, may be he was too needy(he is 36 and I am 30), may be he was too attractive and couldn't resist touching me so that frustrated him even more! May be when I refused he thought that I don't find him irresistable enough and I have insulted him by saying what I said?
Everything put aside, I do want him to come back. I do want to be in his arms again. I love him a lot. Not sure at all where I am right or wrong and whats up with him!!
Will you have any idea Mirror? I see that his man ego his hurt. Can i give him some kind of bait to tell him, he still have hope here? A really mild hint?
@Confused,
Well, I think a few things probably should've been clarified. For instance, what is your idea of serious commitment? Is it marriage? Or is it a commitment for exclusivity, not dating others? And had he expressed a desire for exclusivity with you? And was he treating you well during the 5 month dating period?
A couple of things spring to mind here. One of which is I notice this:
"Me: gud mrng :)"
"I never left any communication gaps"
YOU should not be the one initiating the bulk of the communication here dear. The only way you truly know, as a woman, if a man is genuinely interested in you - is to see if HE pursues YOU. If the woman pursues the man, she is left confused, not knowing if he genuinely likes her or if he's only seeking sex.
Consider this, written by a man:
http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2011/09/dont-initiate-contact.html
Once a man has asked for exclusivity and the two are a couple, then it's okay to initiate communication, but not all the time. He still needs to prove his interest and intention by doing so.
Also, I notice this:
"Me: was thinking about u..miss me"
You were the one who initiated the conversation and then you took it a step further by immediately expressing emotion - only to shut him down when he returned the same. I realize he should not be so fixated on having sex nor should he be attempting to create the circumstances to do so via text.
However, you kind of walked right into that one dear by initiating the conversation and taking it to a place of emotion immediately. I mean, let's face it, he is a man and he does want to have sex - that's a fact and always will be with men. And he's also invested 5 months into the relationship as well. Meaning, he stuck around. He didn't leave the minute he realized work was going to be required to earn access to your body. Yes, he was a bit wishy washy over the matter, breaking up and whatnot - but he DID come back each time dear.
A man that is seeking free and easy sex, a player, WILL NOT put this amount of time and/or energy into attaining it dear. A player would've been gone the INSTANT he realized he was going to have to prove himself in order to get what he was after.
Cont. . .
So lets take a look at what this man proved (so you can see how to gauge a man's intentions):
1) He invested time, 5 months
2) He returned several times after periods of no contact
3) He apologized each time upon his return
4) He expressed emotion for you
All of those things I just listed above, a player will NOT do. So it's safe to say there was a genuine interest here and he was willing to make an investment in the relationship and in you. Bottom line: He was serious about this.
So now that you know he had serious intentions and made an investment and did work to prove himself, YOU need to decide what YOU want/expect from a relationship. Do you want marriage before sex? Or are you comfortable having sex after a man has proved he's genuinely interested?
Because you see dear, in love and relationships - there are NO guarantees. And I think you might be looking for and/or expecting a guarantee here from him. If so, that's not realistic. Because the reality is that in love and relationships - RISK is required, everyone takes a CHANCE.
The best a woman can hope for is a genuine interest and a bit of proof from a man of that genuine interest. The rest, my dear, is up to fate. Yes, you may get hurt and things may not work out. But that's the RISK you take in love and everyone is required to take the leap at some point in time. As a woman, the best you can do prior to taking that leap, is to have the man prove he's genuinely interested and worth taking the leap for. And then, as I said, the rest is up to fate.
Because here's the reality. Let's say he did marry you. Let's say you felt that was a "guarantee" of some sort. Well you know what? It's not. I was married. I was married for 8 years and spent 12 years total with the man. And guess what? Three lousy years into the marriage - he was cheating.
So you see dear, there are NO guarantees. Even when you think you have one, you don't. So the best you can do is make a man prove he's genuinely interested. And I believe this man was. That's the best you're going to get from him dear before deciding to take the leap and the risk (sex). I believe he became a bit inappropriate about his advances due to the fact that he became desperate and frustrated.
But honestly, the ball is in your court. He's stuck around, he's proved he's genuinely interested - now what are YOU going to do about it? See what I mean?
As far as a mild hint, I'd give this another week or two before doing anything. I think he needs some time and space to think and to breath here. And I also think you need the same.
So why don't you revisit this matter in about two more weeks and see what you feel at that time? I think the space will give you both a bit of clarity, so let that happen and then decide.
Thanks Mirror, for such an insightful reply.
" what is your idea of serious commitment? Is it marriage? Or is it a commitment for exclusivity, not dating others? And had he expressed a desire for exclusivity with you? And was he treating you well during the 5 month dating period?"
Well, the thing mentioned in article is what happened exactly! He came on to me too early, 3-4 weeks of relationship, we met twice kissed once and he wants us to sleep together! I was very uncomfortable at that stage. And when I refused he called it off (even if it was for 3-4 hours) that 4 hours made me alert, what if he is in for just that. Then like I mentioned it happened again and again that we will break up because of that or something indirectly related to that. Once I wanted us to go to an exhibition, he gave me work excuse so I did not arrange passes. Same day I had to be in the area where he lives, he said he will take off from work and I should forget my business and meet him at his place. I said..I thought you were busy with work that's why we did not go to exhibition, he said, we are in mature relationship not teenagers and I don't like going to exhibitions or shopping so I chose work but I would put everything aside if I can be alone with you. That upset me a lot, I felt as if he wants just that not want to be with me or see me happy.
In summary, he was always 'asking' for it and asking when it was not appropriate. In current situation, we got back together after 9 days of NC. I also wanted to be with him, but I did not expect that he will ask about it the same day. It sounded to me as...so now we are back together lets do the thing so it can work this time!! I mean come on!!
Like I said I never kept the feelings that bothered me to myself, I communicated when it was appropriate, I also told him that I want to be with him and he knows.
Regarding initiating the contact, he does that. I did it that day because I told him I was busy with work that day and I will text/call him during the break. I had colleagues around so did not call. I am aware of not initiating the contact rules.
This time he will need hints to come back because of the way it ended. I accused him and doubted his intentions so he will be reluctant thinking that now I am on different wave length and may insult him again. Or he may be offended and if I contacted him directly he may turn me down. Not sure if he is missing me or not as much as I do! I was thinking waiting another week, it will be 1 month then but do you think I should wait for 2 weeks? And I have no idea what will I say or do! We don't have any common friends! In fact not a lot of people know about us!
@Confused,
Okay, seeing how is inappropriately pushing the matter, I think it's best to stretch out the time apart as best you can and give HIM a chance to realize that he was applying the wrong type of pressure and focus on engaging in the act of sex.
I'd was a couple more weeks and then review the situation again at that point and see if you even still WANT him in your life ;-)
Hi Mirror..is it possible for my feelings for him to change in two weeks? Nothing in me has changed in three weeks that already passed. I go to work come back home and do the same everyday! I just miss him so much and think about him all the time. When I feel tired I want to rest in his arms.
As per the article my situation most resembles the variable of..Woman Disrespects or Disappoints The Man... HE did something to bring this disrespect or disappointment from the woman upon himself and she then dumped him. In which case, after a considerable amount of time has passed since he’s last communicated with her (one to three months), he may begin to miss her and rethink things and realize that his actions caused the woman’s behavior. As a result, he may return to make amends and attempt to reignite the relationship.
Who’s hurting more: In this case, I believe the dumper would initially be the one hurting and the dumpee would begin to hurt some time later.
First of all, considering our last conversation..am I the dumper? Because he immediately agreed, so do we even have dumper dumpee situation? Or is it a split on mutual agreement/fight?
Secondly, should I wait for "3 Months" at least? Because I want him back for good this time. I do want to have emotional & physical relationship with him but he needs to sort out his ways and behavior. I don't want to get back together to break up again!
I will re-visit but I am not sure if with so many posts everyday you will remember me :)
@Confused,
Me personally, I think at this point, I'd wait him out for as long as possible. The longer the better.
I thought so too.
Mirror the initial reason for my post was that I wanted to know following..
Considering our last conversation..am I the dumper? Because he immediately agreed, so do we even have dumper dumpee situation? Or is it a split on mutual agreement/fight?
I want to know if I am the dumper or indirectly dumpee!!! Its important for me to know, so that I can figure out 'who is hurting more' part. This article has helped a lot and I have pinned it.
Thanks again for the replies and article mirror!
Mirror also wanted to ask about dreams ..I had this dream couple of weeks back that we were happy and together. I did not think a lot about it but couldn't let go of the feeling either. Last night I had a very passionate dream, my head is full of fantasies ever since. All these feelings making it hard to let go.
Is there a time frame when I can stop recalling how it felt when we kissed and all the fantasies he shared? It is not easy to distract myself from all these thoughts. I feel like I am craving for him, and its him who filled my head with all this. I am usually not desperate types.
@Confused,
Well as stated in the article, you're the dumper.
Regarding the dream, you pretty much analyzed it yourself - it's fantasy. You bought into the "illusion" of himself that he was "selling" you and now, you're stuck in fantasy mode. "It could've been this" or "It may have been like this."
That's fantasy and it's you focusing on the illusion, not the reality. Because the reality is that he wasn't really a great guy that treated you well.
"Is there a time frame when I can stop recalling how it felt when we kissed and all the fantasies he shared?"
Well don't act helpless here dear. You can consciously control your thoughts. If you do not, then you let them run amok and live in fantasy and not reality.
"its him who filled my head with all this"
Yes, but it's YOU who can determine it's fantasy and not the reality of who he was. You can CHOOSE to buy into any BS a man is selling you, or you can CHOOSE to focus on the reality of the situation instead, and cut through the fantasy.
Hi Mirror, I met a guy online a dating site 3 months ago. We began with emails for 1 week, then texts and phone calls. then we skyped until we eventually met a month later. Im 44 and he is 50. He said when we where chatting that he wanted this to be his last relationship. And so did I. We clicked. He is a Taurus and im a Virgo. He lives in another state. Like a 1 hour plane flight away from me. He decided that he would come to see me 3 weekends in the month and me 1 weekend. We get along really well. He has already told me he loves me, and i told him a couple of weeks after that. We have lots in common and seem to enjoy his company and i feel he enjoys my company a lot too. Last week was the first weekend I didn't see him as he was sick.
He isn't a very verbal guy with his emotions. He told me he shows his affection and feeling rather than spoken words. I was fine about this at first.
He does show his emotions though. When we are out he is always holding my hands, in the car his holding my hands or hand on my lap. On the lounge he comes to sit next to me.
Opens the car door for me, and pays most if not all for our dinners or lunches. I haven't been pushy in any way as I have been playing it cool. Lately in the past week, I have been having this strange feeling where I don't feel we are going to work out because of the distances we live. I do like him alot and would love a future with him. But I know its too soon to mention this now. I'm thinking of breaking up with him, but not sure if im doing the right thing or not.
Ive been badly burnt in a past relationship, so I have trust issues right now. He hasn't given me a reason not to trust him, but its just how I feel. He calls me every night before he goes to bed but we keep in touch during the day at times, not much. I'm always the first to text good morning. I feel im beginning to like him more and its scaring me. I don't want to show him im needy or clingy.
Can you please help me, id really appreciate this alot.
Kerry
@Kerry,
"I'm always the first to text good morning. . .I don't want to show him im needy or clingy."
Then refrain from initiating contact and wait for him to say hello to you. If you're worried about being needy or clingy, cease the behavior that's making you feel that way.
"I'm thinking of breaking up with him, but not sure if im doing the right thing or not. . .I feel im beginning to like him more and its scaring me."
Taking action on negative feelings rarely, if ever, yields positive results dear. It's never wise to act of negative feelings. It's much better to accept them for what they are - FEAR - and not take action on them and simply let them pass.
If you act on fear, most likely, you will regret doing so within a week or two later.
Hi Mirror,
How are you? I am assuming you will recall what we shared a few days back.
When I was dating him I shared pic of a painting with him, very cute love birds. His comment back then was 'nice'. This was a few months back. Yesterday I was looking through my camera roll and uploaded it on facebook and a lot of friends liked it. Later at night I wondered if I gave out any hint too soon, I didn't mean to. Will he think that I have cooled down and I am not over him? Will it give him ego boost? Is he still mad at me. I had no intentions to give any hints at this stage.
I discussed this with one of my colleague today because he was talking about something similar that happened. He has recommended that I wait three months! Now I am also thinking must never discuss all this with colleagues!! Anyhow, I am still where I was. I would ratherwait and have best ofeverything than be impatient and settle for less.
Your thoughts? Did I mess up NC? Should I continue for another two months? Before I give him any subtle hint?
Thnx.
@Confused,
Sweetie, I have already responded 4 times in-depth to your questions here. I cannot walk you through your dating experiences step by step because if I do that - how will you learn to think/apply these lessons for yourself?
At some point, you're going to have to take the resources, tools and advice shared here on this site and begin to apply them yourself in order for you to naturally incorporate these concepts into your dating experiences dear.
The only way you're going to be able to learn these concepts is if you begin to utilize them yourself :-)
Hi Mirror..thanks for your reply and responses on previous 4 occassions..they were so helpful, I have read them multiple times.
By doing things my way so far I have messed up big time and you sounded like guardian angel who knows so many things from probably your own and everybody's experiences(who come for advices) that it made me ask you things in so much granular level.
It's been nearly 40 days, I want to reconnect with him, and I am sure there is a right way of doing it by not sounding desperate/needy or converying that I regret saying what I said..but I don't know what that way is!!
On a seperate note, is it possible for you to edit my message on April 6, 2013 at 8:46 AM and take out the conversation part. The thing is I have recommended your articles/site to a bunch of friends to read and couple of them will figure out its me from that part if they ever landed here. as I was seeking comfort by talking to close friends. I don't want them to know I am still not over him.
Thanks again.
Hi Mirror,
I want to thank you for the wisdom you so freely share with others. Its helped me deal with my hurt and see things more clearly and confidently.
Here's my story: I met a man 5 months ago who swept me off my feet then disappeared without warning or explanation. We are in our 50's and did not sleep with each other until the 2nd month. We live 30 minutes apart and have demanding jobs, so after initially seeing each other 3x a week it was natural for us to fall into a mostly weekends only pattern. He is a typical guy, not comfortable with expressing anything emotionally, and it took a long time for him to get comfortable with me because while he is average looking, short and overweight, I am a pretty, slender blond who still turns heads. I fell for him because I enjoyed his company and he treated me very well. He took me to fabulous restaurants every weekend and everything about our relationship was terrific. When I finally let him get close to me it was apparant our chemistry was something extraordinary (Capricorn and Scorpio). In the 4th month he told me he loved me and had a dozen white roses delivered the next day.
A week later he created crazy texting drama that I recognized as potentially damaging and tried to ward off by asking him to call or come over, thinking that we could communicate better than by stupid texting. He responded with more erratic texts then announced (by text) that he had brought back my things and left them outside my door. Exasperated, I texted him that was "real mature" he responded with "I'm done".
So I let him go, wondering why he suddenly got crazy. At the time I thought maybe he was scared of his feelings, cause HE was the one who professed love and followed that with flowers. Now I see it as his first attempt to run away.
A week went by and I did the NC without even knowing it, I certainly wasn't going to contact him after he behaved so badly. A week later he texted me an apology, and here's where I messed up...I hadn't found you yet :)
I took him back when he came over with flowers AND candy. Again he professed his love and we had the most loving, caring, wonderful weekend of them all. He kissed me differently, held me differently, and I KNEW he loved me.
One week later he texted me that he was at the hospital with his mom. I offered words of encouragement and asked him to keep in touch when he could. 5 days later and not another word from him, I emailed him asking him to please say something. He responded with his mom had open heart surgery and he was feeling guilty for the way he had treated her...he was hard on her when they all thought she was faking for attention. Again, I offered supportive and encouraging words and he responded a few days later with "I'm going to move forward with this. I should have not brought you into my problems," blah, blah, blah. I was shocked at how suddenly he shut me out of his world and I texted him "I knew you were dumping me all along" His response was "I'm sorry you feel that way."
So its been 2 weeks and I've read so much here that's helped me to begin to heal. I can't possibly know what he's feeling, or if he's the type that will come back. But my question is this, IF he does contact me, is this the situation where I wait 30 days or 3 days? I do love him and although I've realized how low on the totem pole I am in his life during this personal crisis of his, what we had was so much more than sex and if he does come back it wouldn't be for that. I know I need to make him work to get me back, but I sure do need your advice. Again, thank you for your infinite wisdom. Unfortunately, my mother never gave me a clue, all she did was boast about what a beauty she was and how everyone was in love with her.
@Anonymous,
I think this man is afraid of "feeling" anything. He's "shut off" to his emotions. When he attempts to accept them, the newly found feelings feel awkward and make him uncomfortable. As a result, he second guesses himself and then gives in to a knee-jerk reaction - only to regret it later on down the line.
And I say this because he's also apparently done this with his mother as well. Rather than letting himself "feel" concern for her, instead he treated her with apathy (shut off) - only to regret it later when it was discovered that her pleas were valid.
He's a runner dear, an escapist:
"Escapism robs us of psychological maturity and wisdom. It is only in dealing with reality that one develops the "Wisdom" that begets "Understanding," and it is "Understanding" that truly makes us mature enough to deal on a long term basis with "Reality."
Reality doesn't bode well with this man and my gut is telling me that he, most likely, has a highly active fantasy life or aspect of reality that is comfortable to him and that he prefers to live in. When he steps outside of his fantasy and he experiences his reality, fear sets in and he runs away from reality and back into the safe confines of fantasy.
Given that he's pulled this twice on you and has already been given one second chance, my suggestion would be to let this one work a bit at this. Maybe not the full 30 days (because he's treated you well in spite of his disappearances and he's not been disrespectful during the times you are together), however, definitely more than 3 days.
Because you need to ferret out if this man could also possibly be what I refer to as a "gentleman player." This is a type of player that isn't obvious and is a bit more difficult to identify. They use romance as a means to receive sex, which is fine, however, they are not sincere about it. So you need to discover if the flowers, candy, etc. aren't all just tools that this man has in his arsenal as a means to fulfill his sexual needs.
I'll leave the time frame of response up to you when/if he reappears, however, I will tell you that I suggest that women wait until they hear, "I'm sorry, can we talk" or something along those lines from the man in his communication attempts. An expression of regret, remorse, a desire to talk and an apology.
Because THAT is when a man is ready to really work on the situation and take it seriously. Anything short of that usually results in a waste of the woman's time.
This is from the woman who's been hurt by the escapist.
Thank God for you and your prompt response! You are so right in everything you assess and reply to all the women who seek you out. I've spent countless hours in the last few days reading page after page of stories from women who were just like me, desperate to understand how to deal with the disappearing/reappearing man. The emotional pain of being tossed aside so callously was eating me alive, but I found answers here that DID help me understand. And with those answers came insight and acceptance of the situation. The fog has lifted, clarity has returned, and I've regained my self respect after being an emotional basket case and wallowing in pain and self pity.
Yes, he IS a runner...you hit the nail on the head. I'll have to continue to work hard to move on healthily and not backslide into emotional confusion. But I had to write back to let you know that your words to me and others here have had a profound impact, giving me the strength to endure this painful disappointment while reclaiming my sanity and self respect.
Bless you my dear, you are a Godsend. And thank your for your encouragement.
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